Author Topic: Death spiral for cars  (Read 16857 times)

rcjordan

  • I'm consulting the authorities on the subject
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16420
  • Debbie says...
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2017, 12:17:52 PM »
Not counting my collectible cars or RVs, I keep 4 vehicles for routine use --a Sprinter truck, a Dodge passenger van, a minicar (Honda Fit), and a beater. None of them are expensive ...their total value would be less than a single mid-range Mercedes. I'd buy an EV to replace the minicar *IF/WHEN* it {A} has 350 mile true range, {B} can be recharged in 45 minutes at reasonably convenient locations, and {C} is priced within 10-15% of a comparable gas-burner.

To replace my passenger van, which is my go-to vehicle for traveling larger distances, the specs get far tougher for an EV, particularly recharging. I think it'll require a hybrid unless there is some sort of near-miraculous break-through in battery or hydrogen tech.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 12:19:46 PM by rcjordan »

ergophobe

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9324
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2017, 04:49:28 PM »
you're gonna have to greatly increase the range and decrease the charge time  

Recent Headline: asphalt-lithium batteries charge 10-20 times faster than current lithium batteries
https://phys.org/news/2017-10-asphalt-lithium-batteries-faster.html

Headline from a few months ago: graphene in lithium batteries triples energy density
https://phys.org/news/2017-05-graphene-nanotube-hybrid-boosts-lithium-metal.html#nRlv

There is a lot of battery tech in the labs that seems like it has a decent chance of being commercialized within a decade
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 04:52:12 PM by ergophobe »

ergophobe

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9324
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2017, 04:55:14 PM »
@rcjordan... more or less the same criteria, though I'd pay more, but I also want 4WD or AWD because we have chain controls and, though this often makes no sense, 4WD are typically allowed to travel without chains when they are required on 2WD.

Tesla of course makes AWD cars, but when I say I would pay more than your 10% premium, not *that* much more.

rcjordan

  • I'm consulting the authorities on the subject
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16420
  • Debbie says...
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2017, 05:03:13 PM »
>There is a lot of battery tech

Agreed, and I'm hopeful.  The fellow who invented li-on recently announced a better battery. He ought to know. (and he's in his 90's)

>4wd

Here on the flats, we really don't need it AND you pay an insurance premium because you *might* take it off-road (though, IIRC, 90+% of 4wd vehicles never leave the pavement).

Brad

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4163
  • What, me worry?
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2017, 08:38:06 PM »
>pavement

But there might be leaves on the driveway, hence the need for 4wd on our Escalades. Paraphrasing Jeremy Clarkson.

I want awd, and I want a car that is not shaped like a mushed wedge that only preschoolers and little people can get into because the roof is down at navel level on me. Just saying.

ergophobe

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9324
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2017, 05:24:46 PM »
But there might be leaves on the driveway

When we lived in the Bay Area, I was always doing this analysis for (or maybe "on") people. What you would hear all the time is "I need a 4WD because sometimes I like to go to Tahoe in the winter."

So I would ask how long do you keep your cars (typical answer: 10 years) and how many times to you go to Tahoe in the winter (typical answer: 10) and how many times did you have to put on chains (typical answer: "OH God, all the time. Like six times last winter."

You can hire a chain installer to do it for you for $40. Did you do that? "No"

"Why not?"

"That's too much money. For $40, I'd do it myself."

"So you wouldn't pay $40 to sit in your warm car and let someone else get cold and wet?"

"No. It only takes ten minutes. That's like $240 per hour."

So then I would say
 - looking at vehicles that have 4WD and 2WD versions, on average you pay about $3500 for AWD. But since you don't actually need an SUV-sized vehicle, that's $5000 extra
 - you give up 2-3 mpg just by adding the 4WD and all the associated extras, but at least 5mpg relative to what you would get if you didn't need 4WD and perhaps as much as 10mpg - at least $500/yr, so $5000 over the life of the car
 - then TCO goes up because insurance is higher, drivetrain repairs are higher. Say at least $4000 over the life of the car.

So that's $14,000. Let's be conservative and say $12,000

So you went to Tahoe 10 times. How many times did you have to apply chains? "Oh God. All the time. Like six times last year."

Okay so 12,000/10 years/6 times per year = $100 for every incident where you avoid putting on chains.

By your calculation, it only takes ten minutes, so you're paying $600/hr to avoid having to put on chains.

Needless to say, this exercise neither won friends nor influenced people.

ergophobe

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9324
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2017, 05:26:12 PM »
All that to say that vehicle buying decisions are emotional as much as practical, and if you don't have the right emotional appeal, it ain't going to sell.

And if you can convince someone that something is cool, they will spend a lot of money for that cool, regardless of how much or how little sense it makes financially

rcjordan

  • I'm consulting the authorities on the subject
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16420
  • Debbie says...
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2017, 05:37:29 PM »
>Needless to say, this exercise neither won friends nor influenced people.

Hhh! Back in the 80s I used to do something similar to all the guys who put in fireplace inserts and started burning wood to save on their power bill.  Add in the cost of remodeling, a chainsaw, a trailer, and -of course- the obligatory new 4wd pickup truck and they would be better off paying $1/kw ...but they didn't want to hear that.

Drastic

  • Need a bigger hammer...
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3087
  • Resident Redneck
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2017, 06:25:14 PM »
I don't use my 4wd very often at all, but when I do, I need it.

Pulling a 2+ton boat up a steep & wet ramp... no 4wd I must leave boat in the water = f###ed.
Going somewhere off road on some random friend's land to adventure around on the dirt bike, get stuck in 2wd with no 4wd? f###ed
Plus the rare times we get snow/ice I like being able to do what I want and help friends/family as needed.

Here the 4wd premium on my truck was maybe 2k more, I lose about 1 mpg which is fine.

Price doesn't matter, I don't like being stuck.

ergophobe

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9324
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2017, 06:59:03 PM »
I don't use my 4wd very often at all, but when I do, I need it.

Don't get me wrong. I was not telling people they shouldn't be buying a 4WD. I was telling them their reasons were jacked.

I asked one friend and she said "I'm a middle-aged woman, single and driving a Jeep Wrangler makes me feel younger, hipper and more desireable." I didn't argue with that because you can't. She made the decision for what I would call the right reason. I mean, it wasn't bullshit. She decided it was worth the cost and the uncomfortable ride and so forth because of the way it made her feel. Only she knew the price of that.

Of course, this is the same woman who I ran through the numbers and convinced her to sell her home and who, two years later, told me it was the decision she had ever made. So she was clear-eyed

Drastic

  • Need a bigger hammer...
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3087
  • Resident Redneck
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2017, 07:18:20 PM »
Yep, I get you.

I've been playing with the idea of grabbing a rough wrangler lately myself just because they're fun. Probably never take it offroad, but having big mud tires, doors off and a bikini top (on the jeep, rc) would be worth paying that premium to me.

Brad

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4163
  • What, me worry?
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2017, 07:20:59 PM »
Lazy is a powerful motivation.

I leased a Jeep Wrangler I quickly figured out that I could blast down my driveway after a good snow without having to shovel first. Liking that I bought a awd Subaru to replace it when the time came.


DrCool

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • I know you all want to know what I think
    • AOL Instant Messenger - drcool1973
    • View Profile
    • What Does Joe Think
    • Email
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2017, 08:01:43 PM »
>4WD

If I ever move back to Spokane there is a 99% chance I will get a 4WD again. I might only really need it once or twice a year because of the snow (maybe more depending on the winter) but I spent way too many cold, wet days digging my non-4WD owning friends out of snowbanks.

rcjordan

  • I'm consulting the authorities on the subject
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16420
  • Debbie says...
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2017, 11:11:10 PM »
Put chains on the rear drive wheels of a VW kombi van and you can go anywhere. Well, anywhere until you climb a tall, steep snow drift and stand the damn van on its rear end.

Drastic

  • Need a bigger hammer...
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3087
  • Resident Redneck
    • View Profile
Re: Death spiral for cars
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2017, 04:23:46 PM »
We (Dad) used to have an old bug. Chopped the fenders, pulled the hood and used it for hunting.

Get stuck? Get out, pick up front end and set it over. Climb back in and drive away.