Author Topic: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because  (Read 20813 times)

rcjordan

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littleman

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2016, 02:14:44 AM »
We really need to start hashing out how capitalism will survive the end of low skill labor.

rcjordan

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2016, 11:16:57 AM »
I once read that if a headline ends in a question mark, the answer is 'no'

Best Buy Turns 50, But Will It Turn 60?
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/08/19/best-buy-turns-50-but-will-it-turn-60.aspx

Mackin USA

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2016, 02:48:08 PM »
LM has a point!  ;D

While Americans are going to be able to choose between two contrasting ideologies [in the next election], what if both choices are off the mark? What if the legitimacy of free market capitalism in America is facing fundamental challenges that the candidates and their parties are not addressing?

http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/is-this-the-end-of-market-democracy/?_r=0

"The debate over the workings of democracy, the market, technology and globalization remains unresolved. The political system instinctively avoids this debate, despite its salience and centrality, because the political costs of engagement are likely to substantially outweigh any potential gains. At an undetermined point in the not too distant future, however, as the “gale of creative destruction” blows through the heartland, the debate will become inescapable."
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 02:54:43 PM by Mackin USA »
Mr. Mackin

rcjordan

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Rupert

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2016, 07:30:24 AM »
I think you hit the nail.  Capitalism runs on what is best for business, not what is best for a country or a people.  it has served well for the last few decades imho.

But the difference between whats best for business and whats best for the country and so the population are now diverging.

but then I have been twisted by this man :)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Things-They-Dont-About-Capitalism/dp/0141047976
... Make sure you live before you die.

littleman

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2016, 03:09:31 AM »
I don't see any current ideology or economic system that is going to work in their current form in a generation.

At the basic level people need food, shelter, medicine, basic hygiene.  This isn't enough though to have a stable society, people also need a sense of belonging, purpose and dignity.  I think without all those needs taken care of we're heading to an unstable future.  That's what I see as the major problem with basic income.  It will take care of the first level of need, but does nothing to address the other urges of humanity.

I suppose we are going to have a new global New Deal eventually -- probably fueled by a very progressive tax system.  Either that or we're heading to something  close to what was in the movie Elysium -- something even people like the Koch brothers would like to avoid. 

The intermediate danger is to avoid the rise of radical authoritarian nationalism.

ergophobe

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2016, 04:31:12 PM »
It's funny... I remember a *long* time ago a friend saying "I never thought I'd miss Nixon."

And yet... another idea where he may have been ahead of his time
http://www.alternet.org/economy/how-richard-nixon-almost-gave-america-basic-income-and-why-we-should-do-it-now

littleman

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2016, 04:48:59 PM »
I didn't know about that, thanks for the link.  Nixon started the EPA too, in some ways he was to the left of many Democrats today.

Mackin USA

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 02:37:33 PM »
What is needed is some CRISIS to upend the "world order" and then we can All begin again with an understanding of WTF we did wrong.  :o
Mr. Mackin

ergophobe

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2016, 05:56:15 PM »
I didn't know about that, thanks for the link.  Nixon started the EPA too, in some ways he was to the left of many Democrats today.

I will say simply that "Tricky d##k" was a crook and his secretary of state was a war criminal (Chile, Argentina, etc). And yet, Nixon...

- Created the EPA. Would the man who created the EPA be making actual progress on climate change? Tough question, but as a minimum he would likely look more like a Democrat than a Republican. Unfortunately, the Democrats don't seem to understand the gravity of the situation either.

- proposed the minimum basic income as linked above even in an age of *falling* inequality. What we he be proposing in our age of rising inequality and much greater absolute inequality (though perhaps lower absolute poverty? Not sure about that).

- pushed a national health policy considerably more "liberal" than Obamacare at a time when far more Americans had employer-based insurance - http://ihpi.umich.edu/news/nixoncare-vs-obamacare-u-m-team-compares-rhetoric-reality-two-health-plans

- Opened relations with China. Kissinger had negotiated in advance, but did you know that the Chinese would not commit to letting Nixon meet with Mao and Nixon felt that if Mao refused to visit with him, the trip would be a failure. Yet he climbed onto a plane to fly to China with no assurance on this score. I cannot imagine a president doing this today for a trip to, say, Iran or North Korea. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/25/books/chapters/0225-1st-macm.html?_r=0

In many respects he was more "Democrat" than many if not most Democrats today.

I basically see Hillary Clinton as the inheritor of Nixon both for good (see above) and ill (paranoia, sense of executive privilege, hawkishness).

ergophobe

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2016, 06:00:58 PM »
I think you hit the nail.  Capitalism runs on what is best for business, not what is best for a country or a people.  it has served well for the last few decades imho.

In a short-term view, yes. But from a perspective of planetary sustainability, it has been a disaster by externalizing societal costs allowing profits at the cost of mass extinction, foot-dragging on climate action, habitat destruction and on and on.

Externalities are the Achilles Heel of capitalism. I do think there are free-market solutions: if everyone owned "shares" of the atmosphere, for example, companies would have to pay for those and there would be a market where I could value my atmosphere share at any price I want. With great wealth inequality, though, I would fear how that would work (what would happen to me once I had ruined my atmosphere share?).

Rupert

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2016, 06:17:22 PM »
Ha Ha! 
Quote
(what would happen to me once I had ruined my atmosphere share?).
  indeed! 

Absolutely, capitalism has been a disaster from the global view....  but would we have had the massive technological expansion without capitalism.  The tech expansion that is possibly our only hope for the future?

And I am not sure I can realistically see a global view looking deep into the future.... so yuk...

what was that quote Drastic found?  here it is:

Quote
When viewing the world through rose-coloured glasses, red flags just look like flags.
  Or no leaders can see the red...  maybe they are still too far away.

And I don't think there is anything remotely resembling a "Free Market" anymore. Every market has controls.



... Make sure you live before you die.

ergophobe

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2016, 07:24:03 PM »
I use that quote all the time now. It is plain genius.

>> tech expansion that is possibly our only hope

It has, of course, been good for the humans who have lived through the past 50 years.

I think, however, that if we had properly priced externalities (or more correctly, if we had internalized them), we would have had similar but different technological progress that would be just as advanced, but advanced on different fronts.

Travoli

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Re: There are 1.2 million missing retail workers because
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2016, 08:39:45 PM »
>but does nothing to address the other urges of humanity.

Next phase: Bread and Circuses.