Author Topic: Small site SEO is dead  (Read 1367 times)

ergophobe

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Small site SEO is dead
« on: April 04, 2024, 02:54:52 AM »
I see more and more people taking about their niche sites getting obliterated. In the old days, when people made this complaint and I looked at the sites, they were usually junk. Now they are usually excellent.

I previously posted this
http://th3core.com/talk/traffic/case-study-of-ai-recipe-site-by-roger-montti/

I haven’t checked this one out, but it popped up in my feeds today.

https://retrododo.com/google-is-killing-retro-dodo/

Quote
Retro Dodo is on the brink of collapse… because of Google.

I’d take issue with that phrasing - the site *exists* because of Google. But the general problem…

Then this…

https://twitter.com/lr_jordan/status/1775466716652269713

Scroll through the comments and @craig somebody has the same graph for a totally different site.

I haven’t seen this kind of carnage on tourism sites, but despite decent spend on content creation, the sites I know have seen a slow but inexorable decline in traffic despite many new high-quality articles from professional writers with decades of pro writing.

Are ANY niche sites from independent publishers gaining ground, or even holding steady, from SEO/content dev alone (in other words, no ppc, limited feeding from social, etc)?

As the AI shitstorm heats up, this can only get worse.

ChatGPT is known to overuse the word “delve” and it’s use has skyrocketed in PubMed papers.



rcjordan

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2024, 03:35:32 AM »
maybe related. maybe not.....

On deep searches I've noticed that quotes don't seem to be as powerful as they used to be. 

Travoli

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2024, 04:06:39 AM »
Anecdotally...

The current algo seems to *heavily and overly* favor "official" sites regardless of the quality of their information. They'll list a town .gov or CVB website with one crappy paragraph of general text instead of a commercial website that provides detailed and relevant info. It's a poor user experience.

I wonder if they're doing it to keep people focused on all the widgets they've stuffed at the top of SERPs.

ergophobe

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2024, 01:24:16 PM »
I’ve noticed the same about quotes as well. It’s becoming an ineffective search refinement.

In terms of traffic collapse… remember when people at Pubcon had sessions on how to get your site’s snippet in the “info box”?   Now being excerpted into one of the many, many expandable snippets seems to be a kiss of death. So many quick, factual questions are answered there. It’s not that big or official websites are winning in that case, it’s that only Google gets traffic for a question like “when was the Wizard of Oz movie released?” or “When did Sinatra die?”

Littleman raised the question recently of why bother to produce content if it’s just going to get used for training and AI that sends you no traffic? Same question with the modern Google - why spend money/time on good content when AI botshit often does better because it can now churn faster than Google can burn.

Lately it has me thinking that the age of the search engine is ending for the search user, but is already over for the niche content producer.

Simply put, if you want to own your content (I.e not have it owned by Meta or X or Alphabet or Bytedance or Reddit) and get eyes on it, you need a strategy that does not prioritize search.

It also makes me wonder if sites will simply start blocking all bots including the Google crawler. It reminds me of the Covid Airbnb crisis. They treated hosts so poorly, hosts started to opt out. It turns out that being overly guest-centric was going to result in them having no stock to offer to guests.

If google and AI chatbots offer less and less to content producers, why let them in?

The paradox of content in 2024 is that the only content that has real value that can’t be stolen is content that is very quirky and hard to summarize, but that is precisely the content that people generally can’t and don’t find via search.

Search is dead and we have killed it
  — Nietzsche

ergophobe

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2024, 01:29:42 PM »
PS - the death spiral for AI content goes like this

Step 1: massive amounts of AI botshit is produced

Step 2: the AI-era version of ad blockers is personal summarizer bots that wade through the botshit for the stuff you want.

Like better locks resulting in better tools for criminals and drones bombing drone factories, Newton’s Third Law of Motion inevitably applies beyond physics
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 01:32:06 PM by ergophobe »

rcjordan

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2024, 03:20:41 PM »
>I’ve noticed the same about quotes as well. It’s becoming an ineffective search refinement.

Debbie says purposely crippled search increases engagement time-on-site and provides more opportunity for marketing.  I can see that small, independent sites might not have the wherewithal to develop a good internal search but there is no such excuse for the big dogs.  If you want to see the ultimate in cripsearch, give FB Marketplace a try.  Amazon is not as bad, but its own serps have never been up to the standard that even secondary search engines have.

rcjordan

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2024, 04:33:17 PM »
+
Well, this'll limit the AI userbase...

https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-plans-charge-ai-powered-search-engine-ft-reports-2024-04-03/

Google plans to charge for AI-powered search engine, FT reports | Reuters

Rupert

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2024, 05:14:45 AM »
Trials moved to the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-68730138

I noticed that the BBC has a list of AI robots banned in robots.txt
... Make sure you live before you die.

Brad

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2024, 08:37:23 AM »
If Google sends no traffic there is no reason to give any of the Google-bots access.  (May not work that way in the commercial web, but in the non-commercial web, it makes sense.)

ergophobe

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2024, 01:51:04 PM »
>> charge

Cory Doctorow’s most recent post is about switching to Kagi, which is $10/month, $14 for a couple, $20 for a family.

He says it reminds him of when he switched from Alta Vista, which had become utterly spam infested, to Google.

The thing is, Kagi is built using Google data (and Mojeek and Wikipedia and others). The noteworthy thing about this is that it shows that Google’s shitty results are not because of a data problem or an algorithm problem or (as a lot of people who don’t know much about it say) SEO. No, it is because of a CHOICE to offer a shitty product and use Payola to be the default search engine.

It has me thinking a lot about how much free has cost us a society. We accept that streaming costs money and cloud storage costs money and password managers cost money. But we let search and networking platforms be “free” and now it’s a cesspool.

On the other hand, everyone wants $10/month which means I’m going to choose one or two or three of those services, not 20. Which is why there are so many “free with ads” or “cheaper with ads” streaming services.

For what ever reason, I refuse to use ad-supported streaming, but readily use ad-supported search. I don’t understand myself sometimes.

Brad

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2024, 05:14:08 PM »
>Kagi is built using Google data

Kagi is currently using Brave search, Yandex and Mojeek for their primary meta results and Marginalia plus their own Telcis (Sp?) for their "Small web" search.  Somehow Brave search has reverse engineered their index and ranking by copying Google.  Nobody seems sure of the details about how Brave has done this and nobody has ever spotted a user agent identifying itself as being from Brave search.  So there is some sort of connection Google but sort of murky and IMHO dodgy.

I have not tried it, but people seem to like Kagi, which shows you can build a decent meta-search engine with Brave, Yandex and Mojeek.  Also my traffic from Kagi has gone up (but not to commercial levels) since Kagi went to these sources.

DrCool

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2024, 03:55:34 PM »
>>Are ANY niche sites from independent publishers gaining ground

Anecdotally I know a number of small publishers (myself included) who's sites have been hammered pretty hard by Google. Some are cooking related, some are product reviews, some are wedding themed, and some other niches as well. As far as I know none of these are AI content and are all written by real people with first hand knowledge of the products they are reviewing and talking about.

Like I should have learned at least a half a dozen times in the past I need to stop getting sucked into the trap of relying on Google for my traffic. Most of the small publishers I see having success at my day job are primarily generating their traffic from social channels now. Facebook, Twitter, IG, Youtube, etc.

littleman

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2024, 09:06:28 PM »
>On deep searches I've noticed that quotes don't seem to be as powerful as they used to be.

They seem to be downright ignored half the time.

>AI botshit

This has echos of the turn of the century cloaking sh## that people like me were producing en-mass. 

I have to believe that it isn't the the fault of the spammers but the laxing in Google's algorithm.  Google seems to be weakening their search results to funnel more people into PPC clicks.  I don't believe it is hard to detect AI content, especially low effort AI content like C&P ChatGPT.

In other words the poor results are by design, all they have to do is be better than Bing, which is pretty easy.

>>Are ANY niche sites from independent publishers gaining ground

I have an old one that has recently gotten a lot of press and it has climbed back up to #1 for it's niche.  It just got a lot of recent inbound links though.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 09:16:17 PM by littleman »

grnidone

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2024, 09:02:33 PM »
>This has echos of the turn of the century cloaking sh## that people like me were producing en-mass.

Have you seen how teachers are putting in "code words" into their instructions for assignments to see if kids are just using ChatGPT to make their essays? Seriously, white on white text

https://www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/1bitata/adding_a_trojan_horse_to_detect_ai/

And, for resumes, keyword stuffing in white text.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnethicalLifeProTips/comments/cvhjvy/ulpt_trouble_landing_an_interview_many_hr_systems/

Everything old is new again.




littleman

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Re: Small site SEO is dead
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2024, 11:34:58 PM »
>resumes

This one cuts both ways.  The companies are using AI to screen resumes so we have a bit of an AI employee<->employer cold war* happening.

Side note:  You all know I'm quite dyslexic.  For dyslexic people ChatGPT is really a nice tool if used correctly.  I have found that I can't just ask it to proof writing for me, if it does that it will change the voice of my writing too much.  What works is to ask it to just check it for spelling and grammar.

*I am in that war right now, seeking employment, seeing rejections from algorithms and just knowing that no human as actually seen my resume.  It is quite disheartening.