Author Topic: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply  (Read 757 times)

Brad

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Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« on: September 17, 2022, 01:14:35 PM »
Chimney sweeps are in high demand, old 1880's stoves being reactivated, new stoves sold out, firewood is now currency, crooks cutting and stealing trees.  I hope it's a mild winter.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/coal-stoves-and-wood-thieves-europe-braces-for-winter-without-russian-gas/ar-AA11VDu9?ocid=EMMX&cvid=ec0ce590c7774dbea827ada682121a74

rcjordan

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2022, 03:41:29 PM »
UK tabloids are pushing electric blankets

Shoppers say this electric blanket is "much cheaper than using the heating" - Mirror Online
https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/shopping-deals/shoppers-say-electric-blanket-much-28009507

BoL

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2022, 04:02:00 PM »
I'm after a wood burner for the living room to replace a gas fire. Looking to insulate the floor first though.

There seems to be a decent storm once a year here that manages to knock trees over, esp. in the nearby woodland which is a wheelbarrow distance from me. They're pretty much fair game for collection though the Council will hire someone to deal with ones crossing walking paths etc. I'd asked them what kind of cost arrangement happened in these scenarios and apparently they do pay people to do it but there's a deduction based on the value of the wood. The rest gets left to rot.

If I do and take some of that, guess I can clear my carbon conscience by not driving. :)

Also hoping it's a mild winter. The energy prices are crazy at the moment. It'll end up cheaper for people to congregate in indoor public places rather than sit at home, which might be a good thing socially.





ergophobe

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2022, 04:36:25 PM »
If I do and take some of that, guess I can clear my carbon conscience by not driving. :)

This turns out to be a complicated question/calculation. The last I looked into this, my memory (so take with a grain of salt) is that generally, using wood that is harvested and burned is worse than just burning gas to heat with. There's a lot that goes into this, but essentially it boils down to black carbon being really bad over the short run and the "renewable" aspect of trees only plays out in the very long run. Since we need to get GHG output down rapidly in the short run, burning wood should not be considered a renewable fuel at scale.

Also, there are huge differences between old woodstoves and new ones. New ones typically route the exhaust back through the flame and get a secondary combustion that cuts down dramatically on the pollution they put out. There's basically no scenario in which burning wood in an old woodstove is preferable to burning fossil fuels from at GHG perspective.

But your situation is more like ours - wood is dropping to the ground all the time. I just cleared a large tree out of the street last week. Trees threaten houses. We need to clear for fire safety and so on and so on. Most of that wood rots. The question is what is the carbon cycle of rotting wood and what gasses does that emit and how does that compare to burning that wood and pumping out the black carbon?

That seems to be debated by experts, many of whom have vested interests in one argument or the other. But in general, it seems like electricity is usually better unless there's a lot of coal in the mix, natural gas and even oil is better than wood harvested for heating, and it's close to wash but probably slightly better to use "waste" wood for heating than to use gas.

So there's a rough guide to how much conscience needs clearing.

In our case, we do not have wood backup actually, but we definitely cannot depend fully on electric heat because of our numerous power outages, especially in winter. So if we pulled out the gas furnace, we would need to add in a woodstove. As it is now, we can use the battery backup to keep the gas furnace running. Previously, during a 5-day outage in the winter, we had to run a generator to run the gas furnace to get temperature up and then let it fall through the day. That was probably almost as bad as burning coal! But hey, the roads were closed, so nobody could drive :-)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 04:39:58 PM by ergophobe »

BoL

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2022, 09:43:31 AM »
Fascinating points ergo, I'd made my point a bit (lot) tongue in cheek. I'll half-claim to others that smoking is carbon neutral due to 1 tobacco plant replacing 1 smoked. Not truly the case of course but I guess people focus more on the smoke output.

I was mostly thinking about the locked underground carbon of fossil fuels vs what trees have removed from the atmosphere already. So much more to consider though.

Electric seems to be the way to go in the end, I'm told grid-scale gas turbines are 10-15% more efficient than house gas boilers. Lots of biomass used at grid-scale here also (much of which is imported). As it turns out, looks like my floor lacks sufficient space underneath for insulation so may be better to concrete it instead which isn't great for CO2 consumption but hopefully recouped over the lifetime of the house.

ergophobe

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2022, 07:21:25 PM »
Fascinating points ergo, I'd made my point a bit (lot) tongue in cheek

Ha ha! Yes, of course I knew that. But until I went down the rabbit hole evaluating electric vs propane vs wood pellets vs wood vs electricity from wood-burning co-generation plants vs wood you find on the ground and burn at home, I had no idea how much debate rages over the question.

It comes up in particular in the case of entities (the UK I think, but also my home state of VT in the US) where wood burning in some fashion or another is being used as a method to meet GHG targets and being counted as carbon neutral.

Travoli

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2022, 08:52:35 PM »
Meanwhile, a Russian streamer started a 24/7 livestream of his gas stove burning around the clock, claiming it costs 1.44 EUR/month. Russian anthems playing along with the visuals & ~1,500 viewers when I last checked.

https://www.twitch.tv/russiangas1

Update: The Twitch channel was banned.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 04:24:06 PM by Travoli »

grnidone

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2022, 10:34:07 PM »
I just schlepped my dad's old corn stove to my new house.  Yes, it burns corn.

rcjordan

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2022, 11:00:20 PM »
>corn stove

I just saw someone worried about their power bill mention using these like his great-grandparents did;

Haybox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haybox

Brad

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2022, 11:38:52 PM »
> corn stove

My one regret on the house I built is not putting in a wood, coal, corn or pellet stove.  Something off the grid and natural gas lines.  Even if I never use it, I'd have a reserve.

rcjordan

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Re: Europe: Wood and Coal Stoves in Short Supply
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2022, 12:01:49 AM »
>> corn stove

I hadn't heard of a corn stove until this thread. I assumed they were meant to burn the cobs --no, wrong. Kernels!

"Dried corn contains oil and ethanol for heat production and burns cleaner than other fuels available."

"Corn heating units burn 20 percent hotter and burn much cleaner than wood."

"A 1,900 square foot home can be heated on just 40lbs of corn/day, averaging 6,800-8,500 BTUs per pound."

Makes sense for Kansas & Iowa, I guess.