Author Topic: Game changers.. on my watch list  (Read 1446 times)

Rupert

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Game changers.. on my watch list
« on: October 23, 2019, 04:02:13 PM »
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7455754/

Its been recommended by a niece.  Just wondering if there is anything I should know that the well read and researched of this forum might add.

I understand it is about how bad meat is for us...
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littleman

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 11:24:26 PM »
Watched it.

There is a lot of anecdotal stuff in the documentary, but not a lot of science.  I think one can make a very good moral argument for being a vegan, and a person can probably be healthier eating a smart vegan diet than the typical standard American or British diet.

Some notes:
I am not sure why lipids in the blood are a bad thing, lipids can be used for fuel -- in fact, I don't think it is possible to lose body fat without lipids in the blood to transfer energy to cells.

Humans are not that well equipped to extract protein from plants.  In the doc it shows the digestive track of a carnivore vs. a human.  If we were to look at our digestive track compared to a plant eating animal, like a cow or deer, it is nothing like what they have to process the nutrients out of plants.  Even the gorilla is much more equipped to eat plant matter than humans, it has a much bigger colon filled with bacteria to help with plant matter breakdown.

The doc also spent a lot of time talking about the inflammatory properties of meat, but didn't mention that there is a lot of evidence that grains and sugar are a major contributor to inflammation.

Veganism is only possible in post-agrarian societies.  There is no way a person would be able to extract enough calories and nutrients from plants alone in a natural environment.  Our brains are huge (relatively) and take up 20% of our energy yet our guts are quite small.

The glucose being required to fuel the brain claim is not true, the body will make ketones if glucose is not available and the brain will be just fine.

My last point:  It is pretty clear that humans evolved as omnivores if you look at indigenous diets all over the world.

I didn't watch it yet, but this guy spends an hour refuting many of the claims of the documentary.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 11:28:01 PM by littleman »

ergophobe

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2019, 12:14:40 AM »
I think one can make a very good moral argument for being a vegan, and a person can probably be healthier eating a smart vegan diet than the typical standard American or British diet.

Haven't watched either video yet, but realistically, anyone who is eating vegetarian or vegan is not choosing between that and the crappy standard American diet, but probably between that and a much healthier version of the standard diet (probably also avoiding lots of preservatives as one example). So yes, vegetarians are probably healthier than someone following the standard American diet, but not necessarily *because* they are vegetarian.

Quote
Overall mortality is similar for vegetarians and comparable non-vegetarians, but vegetarian groups compare favourably with the general population. The long-term health of vegetarians appears to be generally good, and for some diseases and medical conditions it may be better than that of comparable omnivores. Much more research is needed, particularly on the long-term health of vegans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26707634

Of course, this is looking at mortality, which is really a terrible way to measure health anyway. But check this out with respect to bone density and vegans
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952

I've always been skeptical of any claims that being a vegetarian or vegan is an optimal path to personal health. I've always thought that optimal health would result from a diet that is overwhelmingly plants with a small and diverse amount of animal product (grass-fed, free-range meat, eggs, dairy in relatively small amounts). More and more evidence shows that to be true. Once you switch to pure vegetarian (like me) or, far more so, pure vegan, you are no longer optimizing for your personal health in my opinion.

You might be optimizing for other things, but I think the health argument is a poor way to "sell" it except insofar as pleasure and personal health seem to be the things most people think about when choosing food. So if you can't sell the one, I guess you have to sell the other, whether correct or not.

Rupert

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2019, 05:55:48 AM »
Ah, some sense, thank you :)

I watched it last night and came away actually feeling quite down about it.  Because it would mean Mum is right. At 85 she has only just given up on tennis, and her diet is very much vegan. I see a lot of old folks these days, and occasionally come across others of a similar age to Mum, and they are strong and healthy too. And vegan. Not many, as the diet is not popular with that age group, and maybe I see it because of Mum.  But its there, but again anecdotal.

However, the story felt wrong, and I felt that the test groups all seemed small, and the differences they felt could be a very personal thing. If it made such a huge difference in the performance of athletes, with the money involved, they would all be vegan.

I know little really about the science.
and bingo:
Quote
There is a lot of anecdotal stuff in the documentary, but not a lot of science.
I spotted that too.

The thing is I LOVE eating meat. And Drinking milk. And Eggs. And Cheese. I skip puddings, and go straight for the cheese board. I like rice and potatoes and pasta, but seriously, aren't they just fillers for the meal?  Making sure it is balanced?

OK I know, sugar is the same. And I know to try hard to leave that alone.  So what your body craves is not necessarily good for you. But the sugar we eat is processed, so it is new, and yes I do believe it is killing us. And everything in moderation (My Dads saying, and TBH he did not mean it. The moderation part, but not the everything)

Thanks for the links Guys, and some of the science I did not know, and the other perspectives. 

Already feeling better this morning!

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Travoli

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2019, 03:54:04 PM »
>At 85 she has only just given up on tennis

Diet and exercise.

nffc

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2019, 07:51:38 PM »
I watched it and pretty much agree with LM and also Ruperts moderation comment.

We seem to have lost the connection with food in the west. It is one of the things I find attractive in Vietnam, this food is good for a cold, this one good for a fever. We call them old wives tales in the UK but I think there is some truth in it, big pharma can't make any money off it though.

In Vietnam as an example many people keep chickens, they have to kill them and eat them, a real connection with food. Pigs too, I have a friend from a little village and for the New Year (which is a really big deal) they kill a pig and use every part of it.  Restaurants commonly display a picture of the animal rather than the "meat" if that makes sense. And they eat *all* of the animal, and I mean ALL.

My brothers and sisters from here who visited Vietnam may know what my wife's favourite food is, just to emphasise she eats all the animal.

Very reminiscent of my grandparents generation in the UK who also grew their own vegetables, as did everybody in those times. Food rationing (WW2) didn't end until 1956 which shocked me a little when I found that out.

Just had a quick trip to Italy, Solomeo, same there a real connection with the land/food/animals and the company I visited had a 1 1/2 hour lunch break. In UK it's a Sainburys meal deal eaten at a desk. I think there was a Jamie Oliver show where he showed a bunch of vegetables to both UK and Italian school children. The UK kids didn't even know what a potato was.

I think using animals on a production line basis is just plain wrong. I have a friend who bought a big plot of land, he fancied being a chicken farmer. His neighbour was a chicken farmer so he paid a visit. A big truck arrives loaded with chicks, it gets weighed, a few weeks later they come back and he gets paid on the difference in weight. That's just plain wrong.

littleman

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2019, 02:37:28 AM »
Reddit has a very noisy thread about The Game Changers today.

Along what Mark said, it is not easy to instill good eating habits in kids when junk food is everywhere and excessively affordable.  A typical dinner in our house is some type of meat and at least two vegetable dishes then some rounding out with fresh fruit.  Other than the stuff we grow in our very small garden and the weekly trip to the local farmers market all the food we eat is from industrial farming.  We can't really escape it and stay under budget.  At least I could say that the bulk of what they eat are whole foods.  If we get a chicken or a turkey we usually make a soup out of the carcass.

Rupert

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2019, 07:30:21 AM »
And I think that is a real rub.... affordability.

Ashbourne has loads of chicken farms...  32 days I think is the life. Its about that. They all supply a local factory.

Its illegal to kill your own animals in the UK, unless you are shooting pheasant or grouse. (Not sure if that is the only one? Rabbits perhaps)

And most do not have the land to rear chickens and pigs.  We are too crowded.

Factory meat is soo cheap. I sometimes pick up a big Mac and fries for lunch for £1.99. How do they do that? 800 calories. I know its bad food. But Its fast, and I am in a rush.


That is a noisy thread!
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nffc

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2019, 04:10:06 PM »
>And I think that is a real rub.... affordability.

I hear you but in Vietnam chicken is more expensive than the UK. They have a more rounded diet including many non-animal sources of protein which are usually super cheap.

If I was being harsh I would say it's less a question of affordability and more one of convenience in the west. 

Rupert

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2019, 04:31:39 PM »
More expensive? wow, that is a surprise.  So convenience and/or expectation?

Probably right.
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Travoli

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2019, 06:49:29 PM »
Another point of view from an MD I respect.

https://peterattiamd.com/191027/

Rupert

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2019, 07:34:34 PM »
... Make sure you live before you die.

Rumbas

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2019, 09:55:02 AM »
Interesting. Think I need to watch it.

>she eats all the animal.

Historically, we also ate ALL of the pig and still do to some extend. Nose to tail, ears to feet. Torben will confirm that EVERYTHING on a pig is eatable, hehe.

rcjordan

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2019, 12:48:40 PM »
>eat everything

There's an old-timey saying here in NC; "We use everything but the oink."

I like souse-meat followed by a bite of hoop cheese.  There's still one country butcher near here who has it fresh.

I grew up on collards with pigtails.

>VN chicken prices

That's because you don't have the industrial chicken farms.  Same for pork.  There's a reason China bought our largest pork producer, we do meat cheap.  AFAIK, the industrialized chicken or pork farms started in my region.  There's an interesting story in our local paper
http://www.dailyadvance.com/News/2019/10/26/Parker-Changes-made-NC-pork-leader.html

Related:  There is an egg farm about 40 miles south of here.  After one recent hurricane damaged it, there were headlines that there might be employee lay-offs and egg shortages because this one farm produces 2 million eggs per day.

rcjordan

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Re: Game changers.. on my watch list
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2019, 03:32:21 PM »
"Half of China’s pork production still takes place on small-scale farms. But these production houses have been decimated as China emerges from the epidemic, according to the National Pork Board study, which says 'the backyard and semi-formal sectors are finished in China, and pig production from this sector will be insignificant probably as early as 2025.'

That is because the country is being forced to rapidly modernize its industry.

'China, the country that has built by far the world’s largest high-speed train network from scratch in just 10 years, will also create probably the world’s largest-scale and most efficient pig supply chain, probably in just five,' the study says."

China’s pork crisis is bigger than you think - MarketWatch
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinas-pork-crisis-is-bigger-than-you-think-2019-11-11