Th3 Core

Why We Are Here => Water Cooler => Topic started by: rcjordan on October 16, 2017, 05:49:53 PM

Title: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on October 16, 2017, 05:49:53 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/luxury-pickup-trucks-pictures-features-2017-10
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: buckworks on October 16, 2017, 05:52:24 PM
Don't show my husband. He'll want one.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: littleman on October 16, 2017, 06:04:44 PM
I just see money being burned.  The cost of ownership and use for such a beast is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Mackin USA on October 16, 2017, 07:16:10 PM
BUILD YOUR OWN

http://www.gmc.com/previous-year/sierra-1500-pickup-truck/build-and-price.html#/config
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Travoli on October 17, 2017, 12:31:35 AM
F750 is popular in Texas
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Drastic on October 17, 2017, 01:39:27 PM
>F750

lolol

Does an extension ladder pop down when you open the effing door?
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on October 29, 2017, 10:57:14 AM
Quote
Ford said on Thursday that the average price of one of its F-series pickups rose $2,800 to an average $45,400 a truck in the third quarter. Sales of F-series trucks, which range from spartan work trucks to Platinum models with the features - and price tags - of a European luxury sedan, were up nearly 11 percent to 658,636 vehicles for the first nine months of this year.

Wall Street loves electric cars, America loves trucks

https://in.reuters.com/article/us-ford-motor-results-tesla-analysis/wall-street-loves-electric-cars-america-loves-trucks-idINKBN1CW0EZ

There's still a big disconnect between what American consumers want and what America needs.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Brad on October 29, 2017, 01:46:15 PM
>disconnect

I'm amazed at how large the full sized pickups have become and more and more are now 4 wheel drive. The mid sized pickups are now the size of an F-100 back in the 1960's.

But I can't totally blame consumers for wanting these trucks.  There is a disconnect between what Detroit and the government wants and what people want.

1. Interstates are now a canyon of semi trucks.  We feel safer in something bigger that sits higher so our heads are not at the same level as the semi's bumper.

2.  We have let our roads go.  We want big wheels so we don't wreck our cars in some gaping pothole.

3. Cars are now made to meet fleet fuel standards and wind tunnel tests, not for American people.  American males are taller and heavier than ever before, we don't want to have to jack knife ourselves into a sedan, sit on the floor with our foreheads touching the windshield.  My first car was a 1960 Studebaker Lark 2 door, a compact in it's day, and it had boatloads of more usable interior room than most mid sized sedans have today and a tall man could wear a fedora inside!  It takes a full sized pickup to give them a comfortable seating arrangement today.  Bring back bench seats and some head and leg room and you will be beating off buyers with a stick.  (My first new car was a 1977 VW Rabbit which still had a lot more headroom than today's VW Golf.)

4. The current crop of EV's are even worse in all these roominess categories.  Might work for Europeans but Americans are not going to pay $40K and climbing for an EV we can barely get into and have to swap out the batteries in 7 years.  Better to buy the Gass guzzler you know than face to unknown costs of the battery life.

I could go on about range, $200 proprietary charging cords, incompatible fast charging standards and the like, but you get the picture.  There is a large niche in the American auto market that is only being served by SUV's, *vans and pickup trucks.

PS. It does not help that nearly every car looks like a knockoff of a Camry.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on October 29, 2017, 01:57:31 PM
Squirming and thrashing about isn't going to save you, Brad. Prepare for your fate! hhh

related:
Try a Honda Fit. It's the closest thing to a clown car I've ever seen. (We have the 2010 model.) Front seat is very good re roominess & travel comfort. Rear seat is C+/B- (I've ridden there for an hour or more).  Has decent rear storage, too.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Brad on October 29, 2017, 03:20:34 PM
>fate

LOL. Don't I know it.  Soon we will be laying down in self driving coffins and hope they don't encounter a squirrel.

Related.

Good tip on the Fit, I'll check them out.  My knock around car is a 2010 Ford Transit Connect van. Front wheel drive for snow and huge headroom.  Noisy on the freeway though like being inside a steel drum. But good in town.

Related theory.

Everybody is taking yoga, not for health and inner peace, but to be limber enough to get into the back of these modern cars.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on December 19, 2017, 08:48:36 PM
Hennessey’s VelociRaptor 6×6 F-150

Quote
pricing starts at $349,000 including the cost of the donor vehicle

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hennessey-ford-raptor-6x6-pictures-specs-performance/

Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Drastic on December 19, 2017, 10:42:37 PM
Hey if we're going to go into 6 digits for 6 wheels, we might as well do it in luxury:

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/mercedes-benz-g63-amg-6x6-priced-from-51100-247723/
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Rumbas on December 20, 2017, 11:37:37 AM
>$87K

Pffft, seems like a steal..
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on January 04, 2018, 04:04:32 PM
Americans are spending a record amount of money on new cars and trucks

Quote
General Motors reported that it was moving metal for an average of $38,000 in December — and many of those vehicles were well-optioned pickups and SUVs.

http://www.businessinsider.com/americans-spending-big-money-for-new-cars-2018-1
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: grnidone on January 04, 2018, 04:21:30 PM
Really, the car is a second living space for many people.  Honestly, it doesn't surprise me that people are spending so much for a car:  we spend so much time commuting, why not feel pampered? 

My friend who lives in Oklahoma (3.5 hours away) and goes to school in Beloit, KS (a couple hours north of here) has a 60K Suburban and it does all but make you coffee.  (Actually it probably does make you coffee, but we just haven't figured out how to do it yet.) 

As much time as she spends on the road, I completely understand why she wanted something luxurious.

Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: ergophobe on January 04, 2018, 06:47:07 PM
Really, the car is a second living space for many people.

Actually, for a fair number of people we know, it is the primary living space.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: littleman on January 05, 2018, 12:19:32 AM
>for a fair number of people we know, it is the primary living space.

Are you talking people stuck in their cars for most of their non-work and non-sleep hours or about homeless people?
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Travoli on January 05, 2018, 03:05:12 AM
>F750
>Living space

Yes please.

https://earthroamer.com/xv-hd/
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: ergophobe on January 05, 2018, 06:54:42 PM
>for a fair number of people we know, it is the primary living space.

Are you talking people stuck in their cars for most of their non-work and non-sleep hours or about homeless people?

People who are homeless by choice. All climbers or other outdoor athletes for whom living in a city is onerous.

A friend who got divorced and basically moved into a Prius (that's extreme), but when she needs space to get work done, she takes an AirBnB or she might sublet here and there for a month or two. She's a photographer and just brought her expenses way down so she could spend most of her time climbing.

Another friend works in rope access (i.e. rigging for wind turbines, cell towers, sports events, etc). When he's on assignment, he gets a per diem and if it's far away, lives in a hotel. If it's close enough, he lives in his Sprinter van and pockets the per diem. As a general rule, his goal is to work as much as he has to to keep benefits and spend the rest of his time climbing.

Another friend is a hardcore ultrarunner. She is a software engineer for a well-known tech company, remotely from her van. She puts in a few days of work, then goes and runs 100 miles in the snow (seriously) and then back to the van to crank out code.

One friend now has two kids, but before that he spent most of his year living in a van despite owning two houses. There are two others who are more friends of friends or acquaintances who have enough money to buy houses, but mostly live in their vans. One actually started an environmental foundation with something like $300,000 of his own money because he was getting tons of sponsorship money, but was living on $20K/ year in his van.

I could go on. There is a sector of our society for which this is a relatively normal choice. It usually comes to an end when they have kids.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: ergophobe on January 05, 2018, 07:04:09 PM
BTW, these stories are not mine to tell, but one is documented enough in the public that I might as well. This is a case of a friend of friends, who I don't know personally. I mentioned the foundation... That's this guy
http://www.honnoldfoundation.org/news/

Here's a short video on his van life from the Econoline days. Like most climbers who've "made it," he has upgraded since
https://www.outsideonline.com/1868556/alex-honnolds-van-life

There are many other videos as he is probably the most famous climber in the world right now.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: littleman on February 03, 2018, 07:45:33 AM
Ford is selling $90,000 Lincoln SUVs faster than it can make them  (https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/02/01/ford-is-selling-90000-suvs-faster-than-it-can-make-them.html)
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on February 03, 2018, 01:31:36 PM
Quote
Approximately 20% of new car loan originations are made to sub-prime borrowers.

These loans were not made by traditional banks or credit unions, but by auto finance companies such as car dealers.

U.S. Household Debt Reaches Record $13 Trillion: Watch Subprime Auto Loans

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2017/11/14/debt-auto-loans/
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Travoli on February 03, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
1/3 of trade-ins are rolling negative equity into new loans.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-25/underwater-on-your-trade-in-no-problem-u-s-car-lenders-say
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on February 03, 2018, 05:00:35 PM
>1/3 of trade-ins are rolling negative

holy crap.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: littleman on February 03, 2018, 05:49:12 PM
>holy crap.

I just don't understand how people could sign up to be chained to an anchor like that.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: buckworks on February 03, 2018, 08:52:06 PM
One of my sons is a financial planner and he says that one of the worst and most common financial mistakes is "too much car".

A vehicle is a depreciating asset, no matter what the price level.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: Travoli on February 04, 2018, 12:26:10 AM
>I just don't understand how people could sign up to be chained to an anchor like that.

It's all about the monthly payment. Number of months doesn't matter.

"People would come in with $700 payments and $10,000 negative equity looking to lower their payments with no money down."

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/01/29/trade-ins-car-deal-underwater/
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: ergophobe on February 04, 2018, 01:51:48 AM
It's all about the monthly payment.

The few times I've gone shopping for new cars at dealerships, they always ask "what are you looking for for a monthly payment?" When you explain that you want a price, then you'll talk about financing, they start doing all sorts of funny dances.

One salesman was trying to sell me a fancy used car and when I said that I could have an unfancy new car with a full warranty for less, he said he could "throw in an extended warranty" on the used car. He came back with a big smile and said the sales manager was able to throw the extended warranty in and get us out the door for $$$ per month.

When I reminded him that I specifically said I care only about total price, not monthly payment, his face darkened. He came back with the price breakdown where it showed that they had thrown in the extended warranty for $6000.

Sadly, they do this because it works.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on February 04, 2018, 02:39:43 AM
For the dealers, the money is in a "4 square" deal

https://axleaddict.com/auto-sales/How-To-Use-The-Four-Square-System-To-Sell-Cars

https://consumerist.com/2007/03/30/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four-square-heres-how-to-beat-it/
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: littleman on February 04, 2018, 03:57:00 AM
I sold cars right out of high school.  I worked at a local Food dealership and sold both new and used vehicles.  I made pretty good money for an 18 year old kid but I had to quit after a while because the lack of morality in the process was starting to get to me.

Four square must go way back, because it was in full force back then.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on February 23, 2018, 07:46:15 PM
Quote
Reda, a salesman for Les Stanford Chevrolet Cadillac, a family-owned dealership based in Detroit, racked up total sales of 1,582 new and used vehicles over the past year, according to this report from the Detroit Free Press. If validated by Guinness, Reda would be the new world’s record holder for auto sales in a year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-small-business/wp/2018/02/23/the-worlds-all-time-top-car-salesman-is-fighting-to-keep-his-title/
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on March 02, 2018, 11:06:22 PM
Waaay more that $87k, I'll bet. But worth a look.

1993 GMC 3500HD with a 7.2L Caterpillar engine swap

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1601-this-1993-gmc-3500hd-is-a-trailer-towing-king-with-7-2l-caterpillar-engine-swap/
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: rcjordan on May 09, 2018, 12:48:32 AM
Insane.
Delusional.
Desperate.
All of the above.

More People Taking Out 96-Month Auto Loans

https://jalopnik.com/theres-more-people-taking-out-96-month-auto-loans-now-1825857334
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: ergophobe on May 09, 2018, 02:02:59 AM
A friend told me just two days ago that he spent $120,000 on his dream vehicle (4WD Sprinter van fully kitted out to sleep four) and because it has a bed, you can call it a second home and get a 15-year *mortgage* for it.

I might be happier if I thought differently, but my conservative Yankee upbringing just makes it hard for me to wrap my head around a fifteen-year mortgage on a vehicle.

He's super happy though. It's one of these
https://sportsmobile.com/mercedes-benz-4x4-sprinter/
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: littleman on May 09, 2018, 04:42:35 AM
Is frugality a Yankee (vs Southern) value?  Its just something I haven't thought about before.  My own personal view: nothing that depreciated should ever be financed.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: buckworks on May 09, 2018, 09:08:42 AM
>> nothing that depreciated should ever be financed.

One of my sons is a financial planner and he'd say we should try to avoid owning things that are certain to depreciate, no matter how we pay for them.

In his outlook, something like that camper would be okay to rent once in a while but not to own.

>> frugality

Point to ponder: "Frugal" has the same Latin root as "fruitful".
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: ergophobe on May 09, 2018, 02:15:19 PM
Is frugality a Yankee (vs Southern) value?

I use the term Yankee in a way that people use it in Vermont, not the way a Southerner would use it (to mean a generic northerner) or a foreigner would use it (to mean all Americans). In Vermont, someone from New York, for example, is not a Yankee (despite the baseball team).

When people say Yankee in Vermont, they generally think of someone rural, taciturn and frugal. There are few true Yankees left, but my grandparents fit the mold. A large portion of the furniture in my mom's house was built by her father or his father. My grandfather (who had a fairly high income), repaired everything. My grandmother patched the elbows of his suit coats and darned our socks. But they were very generous with their grandkids. Frugal, but not stingy.

Moving to California was a bit of a shocker. I couldn't believe how many high-priced cars there were on the road.

Quote
The American author E. B. White came up with a funny summary of how to keep the term straight. It shows how, in the end, who is and isn't a Yankee is all about the geographic perspective:

To foreigners, a Yankee is an American.
To Americans, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner.
To Easterners, a Yankee is a New Englander.
To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter.
And in Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.
https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/yankee/

Or, to tell it as a joke... A guy from Texas is driving down a country road in Vermont and sees a farmer and stops to talk. He asks him "How big is your spread?" The farmer points out the borders following hilltop and stone fence.

The Texan says, "On my ranch, if I start at my house and get in my pickup at dawn and drive east until sunset, I'm at the northeast corner. I get up the next morning and drive south until sunset, I'm at the southeast corner. I get up the next morning and drive west, the next morning and drive north all day and I'm back ag my house."

The farmer looks at him for a second and says, "Yup, I had a truck like that once."

And that is what I think of as a Yankee.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: littleman on May 09, 2018, 03:58:16 PM
>avoid owning things that are certain to depreciate

That's an interesting idea.  I'd say it is generally good advice.  It gets a bit complicated when you look at utility/cost -- for instance in a lot of cases it will cost someone less to buy a used vehicle than to rent a new one.  I suppose you could take it to extreme in that example and just use Uber/Lyft as needed and be ahead (particularly in an urban environment).


Ergophobe, that was informative and entertaining.
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: ergophobe on May 09, 2018, 04:09:38 PM
>avoid owning things that are certain to depreciate

Don't most things depreciate?  It's much too cold where you live to get by without owning clothes... for example.

I get the sentiment though. It's a useful filter. I would state it simply as "avoid buying sh## you don't need and know the difference between need and want."
Title: Re: Here you see the $87,100 F-450
Post by: buckworks on May 09, 2018, 07:33:42 PM
>> less to buy a used vehicle

Yes. In part because, with a used vehicle, someone else has already absorbed some of the depreciation.

>> Don't most things depreciate?

Yes, but some more than others. Understand why and keep that in mind when you make spending decisions.

>> know the difference between need and want

Yes. Sometimes the line is blurry, though. Many times I find myself wanting something that I could live without, but I'd make good practical use of it if I had one.