Author Topic: If you care about animals, it is your moral duty to eat them | Aeon Essays  (Read 1250 times)

rcjordan

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ergophobe

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Ha ha! Troll!!!

I think that makes the most sense if you read it as a humor piece.  I double-checked to make sure it wasn't a recycled April Fool's piece.

Yuval Harari has a long discussion of this in Sapiens and, using similar logic, comes to the exact opposite conclusion. He points out that from an evolutionary perspective, cattle have been very successful. From an individual happiness perspective, they have doomed themselves to misery in factory farms. For the great good of cattledom.

I don't have any issue with sustainable hunting or raising animals in sustainable and humane ways and then eating them. In fact, if that's what we were doing, I would definitely be one of the people eating small amounts of meat. I would say my main reason for being vegetarian is because articles like this exist. If I ate small amounts of meat, however, people wouldn't troll me in forums with links like this and the article would go unanswered... which is a bit of a parody of myself, but more or less true.

The problem is you don't get seven billion people eating tons of meat using those methods. You get seven billion people eating very small amounts of meat, as humans did for thousands of years in most cultures since agriculture became common and populations boomed.

And before that, when humans did eat huge amounts of meat
1. There were very few humans
2. They drove roughly three quarters of all large mammal species to extinction within a couple thousand years of arriving in a region.

There is not a single domestic animal that is close to extinction, but massive scale animal husbandry is driving other species to extinction. But, to ensure the future existence of chickens, humans should eat more of them. For the greater good.

To wit:
https://xkcd.com/1338/

He also is delusional with respect to limiting factory farming - you can't have people eat *more* meat and have *less* factory farming.

It's one thing for Physics 1 student to assume an object is rolling down a frictionless plane. It's another for an engineer to design a car on that basis. This is why I gave up after a couple of philosophy courses in college. It seemed to lend itself to going off into theoretical deep ends detached from basic facts.

Speaking of which... then he goes off into the never never land of whether it is therefore a moral imperative to grow and eat more humans and who has rights, humans, animals or both? Humans have rights. Animals don't, therefore we should eat them. For the greater good.

I have a rebuttal to that too:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1080/1080-h/1080-h.htm
Quote
A Modest Proposal
For preventing the children of poor people in Ireland, from being a burden on their parents or country, and for making them beneficial to the publick.
by Dr. Jonathan Swift
1729

Swift demonstrates conclusively that there is a moral imperative for British people to eat Irish babies. For the greater good.

The Aeon author doesn't even seem to understand that from a historical perspective, this is highly cultural. The idea that humans, by virtue of being humans, have rights is fundamentally a modern idea. In other eras, an individual had rights based on belonging to a particular group. This article rankles a bit as a vegetarian, but as a historian, it drives me nuts. It is very literally why I quit taking philosophy classes and started reading history instead.

littleman

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I read A Modest Proposal for the first time when I was 18 and was an instant Jonathan Swift fan.  It is an excellent example of using satire to shame and promote change.

DrCool

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As much as I love meat I wasn't a fan of that article. Very little of his reasoning made sense to me.

>you can't have people eat *more* meat and have *less* factory farming

Totally agree with this. I would rather eat less meat but eat higher quality meat from more sustainable sources. And since it is generally more expensive I end up eating less. I would rather have a $20 pasture raised chicken once a month than a $5 grocery store chicken 4 times a month. It has been a long time since I had a standard grocery store steak. Most of the meat merchants I work with and order from are smaller farms that put a high priority on sustainability, regenerative agriculture, etc. and the meat tastes a lot better.

I forget who I can attribute this quote to (maybe Aaron Franklin???) it is something along the lines of "I only want to serve meat from animals that only had 1 bad day in their lives".

buckworks

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>> only had 1 bad day in their lives

Maybe not even that. We raised our own chickens for a few years, and during a slaughter day one of our boys who was a preschooler at the time observed, "If you do it right they don't even have time to get scared."

rcjordan

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>troll

I'll never tell.  But we do try to avoid politics & religion, sooo...

Eating Meat Made Us Human, Suggests New Skull Fossil | Live Science
https://www.livescience.com/23671-eating-meat-made-us-human.html

Plant-Based Doesn’t Always Mean Healthy – Especially When It Comes to Vegan “Meat”
https://scitechdaily.com/plant-based-doesnt-always-mean-healthy-especially-when-it-comes-to-vegan-meat/

>Plant-Based Doesn’t Always Mean Healthy

I'll add that I checked the sodium in one of the name-brand beef substitutes yesterday.  Yeow! Stroke-on-a-plate.



ergophobe

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I don't disagree with any of that and never have.

I have never believed that being a vegetarian was healthier. To be honest, I made the decision to stop eating meat while tripping on hallucinogens in 1982. I actually didn't even have a word for it and had no plan about whether it was for a day or a year or more. It just became a habit. Now it's so much more common, it's less interesting. But originally it was like a Rorschach of human guilt. If I said I didn't eat meat, people would instantly launch into a soliloquy on how they thought eating meat was healthy or eating meat was moral or whatever.

Strangely, after 27 years together, my wife decided to become a vegetarian. But for the first 26 years we were together she wasn't. So it's not like it's a core identity thing or core moral issue for me. I don't really care whether she is or isn't vegetarian and I don't actually care *that* much whether I am.

I *often* think about introducing some meat into my diet. Where I live now, in a massive island of protected lands, I don't know any hunters or farmers locally. If I still lived in a place where I had a lot of friends who were hunters or farmers, I would try to get meat from them. I know there are commercial sources of humanely raised meat, I just haven't made the effort.

One friend of mine who is now a vegan, for the decade before that only ate meat he killed himself (former combat Marine in Iraq).

The one part of the article's argument that makes sense to me is that there is no cruelty to allowing an animal a good, free, life up until the moment it is suddenly killed by the hunter or the farmer. That is a much less cruel death than most animals will experience in nature and the most honest relationship with that animal.

What put me off in that article was the nonsense about a moral duty to eat animals so that they can increase in numbers and how humans have rights and animals don't (based on what) that I thought was idiotic.

Eating Meat Made Us Human

I think it is natural for humans to eat meat. It's like the raw food thing. Humans can survive on raw food, but it was cooking that unlocked the nutrients that let us grow the big brains that let us dominate the planet. I think meat is like that.

Some humans crave it more than others and I think that's part habit and part biology. I do well without meat, but I really crave dairy. From a moral/ethical/cruelty point of view, I don't think there is a huge difference between eating dairy and eating milk. Also, I kill animals all the time in countless ways. Every vegetarian and vegan does. Drive down the highway and you're killing insects in large numbers (though as studies have shown, not in numbers as large as 50 years ago). My vegetarian food results in habitat destruction. The windows on my house kill a few birds a year. And so on.

The word "natural" is a problem. What does it mean? But in some sense, it is natural for humans to grow to a population of 10 billion and crowd out thousands of other species to extinction. Any species without the powers of self-reflection that we have would naturally do that. Locusts do not consider whether their population and eating habits are "natural." To me, "natural" is not the key question. The key question is "sustainable."

Locusts go through boom and bust. The boom populations are not sustainable. If humans were still a small tribe with a population of 500,000 spread throughout a small portion of Africa, we could do almost anything we anything we wanted short of nuclear war without serious moral issues.

So... I might start eating meat next month (I mean that really, not theoretically, I have been thinking about adding a bit in, it's mostly a question of finding a source I trust), but I definitely will not be swinging by MacDonald's four times a week for a factory-raised cow-based Big Mac.

In any case, I've heard that eating at restaurants a lot leads to higher mortality.

ergophobe

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Last thought - if his argument was that you have a large kill zone (aka lawn), it is your moral duty to devote some of that space to growing chickens and eating them, I would find his argument a lot more compelling.

I’m mostly shocked that the author was able to get tenure somewhere.

buckworks

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>> The key question is "sustainable."

This.

rcjordan

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Fair and Balanced News...

New Study Calls into Question the Importance of Meat Eating in Human Evolution | Lab Manager
https://www.labmanager.com/news/new-study-calls-into-question-the-importance-of-meat-eating-in-human-evolution-27439

ergophobe

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Re: If you care about animals, it is your moral duty to eat them | Aeon Essays
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2022, 03:56:28 PM »
I know The Economist is a left-wing publication that is part of the Animal Liberation Front, but nevertheless...

If everyone were vegan, only a quarter of current farmland would be needed
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/28/if-everyone-were-vegan-only-a-quarter-of-current-farmland-would-be-needed

Note that if we only used dairy cattle for meat, that gets you about halfway there (from 50% of arable land to 26%) and if you just get rid of lamb, beef and dairy consumption, that gets you 98% of the way there (from 50% to 13%) and from there going vegan only buys you another 1%.

Quote
Beef farming produces 31 times more CO₂ emissions per calorie than tofu production does and generates only 5% of the calories that go into producing it.

There is a self-deprecatory, joking response to that last line relating to household methane and hydrogen sulfide emissions, but I will pass (so to speak).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 04:01:39 PM by ergophobe »

rcjordan

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ergophobe

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Re: If you care about animals, it is your moral duty to eat them | Aeon Essays
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2022, 11:20:23 PM »
I love the second one.