The Core
Why We Are Here => Water Cooler => Topic started by: littleman on October 29, 2017, 07:52:58 AM
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I've spent the last few days in the hospital looking after my father. He's suffering from congestive heart failure brought on from diabetes, high blood pressure and a diet very high in sodium. The doctor outlined a very narrow path to health, but I am not optimistic about him staying the course. Sometimes being close to death isn't enough to undo a lifetime of bad habits.
As I mentioned, I've been taking my second oldest to the gym over that last couple of years. While she's gotten freakishly strong she also gained weight. The reasons for the weight gain were complicated -- I guess they always are. Several mouths back she asked me to help her with her nutrition. I outlined the principles I eat by and helped her to adapt them to her particular situation, being a teen, in high school, working in a place with much junk-food temptations and dealing with the constant pressure her peers. She's done an amazing job. The image on the left was from about six months ago, the one on the right was from tonight.
The contrast between how I've been able to help my kid and my lack of ability to help my dad is really something I've thought about a lot.
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Wow... well done to both you and your eldest.
The desire came from within her... I see many girls of that age (My Lucys age too) struggling with it, and the desire for a solution is not apparent. Why? no idea.
But I suspect her success is in a big part because her Dasd was there to help, and guide her through it, not assuming she aleready knew or it was inevitable or something.
So again, well done both. ;D
My Lucy has just come back from a DofE walk. The short explaination is walking and camping for 3 days over the Lake district with a group of 4/5 of them, carrying their food/tents etc for 70KM.
She came back with a swollen ankles, swollen knees and a very sore wrist... she has joint problems. But, she did it, and on top of that, was able to be the positive one, egging the others all the way round when there were tears, fears, and blisters.
Just saying, the feeling is great eh? lovely to share.
Meanwhile my comiserations about your Dad... Similar but different.
My Father in Law has dementia. Is very unhappy, in a lot of pain, and it seems there is nothing we can do to help. We are of course pushing the powers to ensure there is no pain. I don't believe there is an excuse/need for him to be in pain... he is currently in a hospital.
What am I trying to say? His is not a life choice. He has tried hard to hold it back for several years.
So I don't know, except I feel your pain. Old age is crap.....
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Well done! I see my oldest (13) asking for nutrition advice and health benefits. She's always been on the heavy side, but the last year or so really got interested in excercise and nutrition. Think she lost 10 pounds an looking great. Melts my heart knowing it will benefit her in so many ways - especially as a teenage girl.
Sorry about the old man LM. Hope he gets better soon and eventually change his habbits.
My dad died from cancer and the last year where he quit smoking and eathing healthly - was in his words the most depressing time ever. "They took all my pleasures away and I'm still dying.." was some of the last harsh words.
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>my lack of ability to help my dad
You aren't alone, LM. I'm facing a similar habits/health struggle with my parents. Great job with the encouragement and time spent with your daughter. I bet the achievement/insight will serve her well, forever.
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That's awesome. It's so much easier to stay healthy than to get healthy.
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>my lack of ability to help my dad
#metoo
My mom had breast cancer a few years back and has congestive heart failure now and my dad is dealing with Alzheimer's and dementia. Neither of them has ever been very healthy and they both drink more than they should. So hard to know how to help them.
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Wow guys, it seems a lot of us are struggling/have struggled with very similar situations. I wish I had some wisdom to share that would make it easier, but I don't.
>So hard to know how to help them.
Yeah, in my case I can't even get him to own up to the causes of the problems.
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This will be a difficult subject to broach with a parent, but if they are willing to talk about a Living Will (with DNR) and a MEDICAL Power of Attorney, it'd be good to get this done. Be forewarned, you might get blasted out of the room. Don't ask me how I know this.
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>> in my case I can't even get him to own up to the causes of the problems
People will blame anything and everything but themselves. And sometimes they'd be right.
So keep the focus on positive steps for amelioration, without pushing for mea culpas.
Hope is a better motivator than guilt.
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"You can't save someone from themselves." that was the advice I got from a social worker. He was right. You can try but there are limits. It's even harder with an aging parent because ultimately they have to live life on their own terms and yet you want desperately to keep them safe. It tears you apart. Just do your best.
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> Living Will (with DNR) and a MEDICAL Power of Attorney
No love for that post, eh? Yeah, I know, nobody wants to talk about that legal bullshit. So, next meet-up remind me to tell you my own Power of Attorney story with my mom, who would NOT have anything to do with any sort of POA. It's a nail-biting cliff-hanger and involves blizzards, hospitals, heart surgery...
In short, do what you can to get some sort of POA, you're **going** to need it. Without it, you and your family are very, very likely to be forced to step aside by the medical establishment while they make the decisions about care. In modern medical care, they are absolutely, 100% guaranteed to opt for more care, regardless of the patient's quality of life. This is particularly true in larger and/or urban facilities. The day of your family doctor coming to you on the side and asking how you want care to continue is long gone.
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>MEDICAL Power of Attorney
My experience with my MOM is that the healthcare providers INSIST on using their own.
Her MEDICAL Power of Attorney was worthless >:(
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>POA
You are absolutely right. I had the experience with my Father. Fortunately he had given me both medical and financial POAs years before he suddenly became ill. All the medicos, especially the hospitals treat you totally differently when they understand you have the POA.
I just got my mother in to see a lawyer to draw up the same and give me copies based on that previous experience.
You won't have time to do it later, do it now in advance.
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>MEDICAL Power of Attorney was worthless
20 years ago, you were right. Times have changed, and their effectiveness *may* vary by state. North Carolina seems to be somewhat progressive on this. IIRC, the state now maintains a a site that helps you develop & maintain a living will and a med POA. To really get in charge as an advocate for your parent or family member you'll need to record the documents at the patient's county courthouse. Even then, you're going to need copies in hand sometimes.
BUT... be prepared to lie. And, FORCE your advocacy on them. Bring in a lawyer if need be. You are very likely to have to take a "Who-the-f###-do-you-think-you-are-BOY" attitude and stare the sumbitches down, as I've had to do plenty of times. They back off if you seem to have the documents, but they still snipe, b###h, & moan to everyone else about how you're not 'doing the best' for your parent. Trust me on this. I have street cred.
>financial POA
If that's all you have to work with, you may have to lie & bluff. That's what I did.
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POA isn't applicable yet in my situation. My dad is only 73 and for all his bad choices he's far from senile. He got out of the hospital yesterday, looked better, could breath normal again, he asked my mother-in-law for a hot chocolate -- fortunately they were out.
I was looking over his diet restrictions last night, they are very strict. He said something similar to your father Rumbas, "what's the point in living if I can't eat anything".
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>POA isn't applicable yet in my situation.
>My dad is only 73 and for all his bad choices he's far from senile.
My mom was 76 and still a feisty, self-made business woman. When it came to her health, she made incredibly hard, austere decisions about exercise & diet (controlled Type 2 with diet for a decade). A year later, I'd be on deck in full emergency mode handling her affairs through that one, hard-fought POA.
Actuarially speaking: Roll out the mortality tables and deduct the standard 5-7 years for bad lifestyle. That puts a man in the US dying around 74-75. Deduct the average stay in a nursing home (3 years), and....
Brad: You won't have time to do it later.
In fact, you won't legally be able to do it later.
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<added>
Good article here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/14/poor-diet-is-a-factor-in-one-in-five-deaths-global-disease-study-reveals
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Littleman, get your Dad juicing in addition to his normal meals. Don't juice celery (high in sodium).
Rupert, your Lucy may want to try Turmeric capsules for antiinflamatory help, i've turned a few people on to these and they all swear by them now :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01D8QCI2U/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
They have gone up 50% in price since September 2016, these are the same amounts but cheaper :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Turmeric-Curcumin-Capsules-Supply-Health/dp/B06X91219V/ref=sr_1_7_s_it?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1509556191&sr=1-7&keywords=turmeric+capsules
Ideally she should juice turmeric root, my Lucy's brother-in-law grates it over everything.
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>POA
My dad has a spouse too.
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People will blame anything and everything but themselves. And sometimes they'd be right.
That deserves repeating! Health issues are NOT moral issues, but far too often we treat them as if they were.
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>juicing
Thanks for the suggestion. Oddly, he does have to be careful about his vegetable intake from here on out. Apparently vitamin K interferes with blood thinner he has to stay on so that his heart could pump properly.
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>spouse
Complicates the issue, certainly. Probably have cross-POAs like Louise & I do. (Yes, you need them within your household. Pay particular attention to kids when they reach 18. HIPA and the Med community won't pay much attention to you as parents of a legal adult.)
Here's the hard part; is a spouse strong enough to act as an advocate when it gets to crunch time? Will they pull the plug? Probably not. They'll emotionally abdicate to others, usually the oldest child, but the paperwork won't be there.
>And sometimes they'd be right.
And they may be sub-consciously or intentionally ending their life by sidestepping the legal, moral, and religious problems. Apparently, dialysis clinics deal with this a lot.
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>juicing
Thanks for the suggestion. Oddly, he does have to be careful about his vegetable intake from here on out. Apparently vitamin K interferes with blood thinner he has to stay on so that his heart could pump properly.
My pleasure, i'm a bit of a nutritoin-nut.
List of fruit & veg high in sodium :
https://www.livestrong.com/article/274237-high-sodium-vegetables-fruits/
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>Health issues are NOT moral issues
Damn, that's a tough subject for me. Generally, I'd agree with you but so many health problems come from willful self-destructive behavior. I know there are often underlying psychological conditions, and until people overcome them than they are basically prisoners of their vices. Still, it is very hard not to be judgmental when you're watching someone perform mental back-flips to justify their behavior.
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Thanks for the link.
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Tumeric... it was a regular on the table here for a short while..... thanks for the bump.
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Damn, that's a tough subject for me.
Me too. I didn't claim I was *good* at it, just that I believe it to be true because where you draw the line is arbitrary (glass houses problem) and, as Bucky said, often counter-productive. And with one step of remove to examine my own habits, I realize that I typically have no grounds for getting moralistic.
As a trivial, somewhat embarrassing, example, I watch people throw their glass bottle in a garbage can right next to a glass recycling can and my first impulse is to get all moralistic... until I take a second to think about how minor this is in the overall scheme of things and about my own habits and realize that from the perspective of someone from 200 years ago, my behavior and the bottle-thrower's behavior are indistinguishable.
And yes, okay, I'm generally healthy. But I really enjoyed the brownie and ice cream I had at dessert yesterday. If it turns out in 10 years that I'm diabetic, is that because of my many and vast moral failings earlier in life?
So I get the reaction and I also understand the pain of seeing someone engage in self-destructive behavior. But in addition to the "glass houses problem," I watched for decades while my mother made my father feel guilty for his eating, which made him stressed out which made him want to eat more. It was so counterproductive.
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The POAs I've seen have a "down the line" thing to them.
So, the first POA for husband is (wife's name). IF she is not able, then,
followed by (First kid's name). If he/ she is not able, then
followed by (Second Kid's name.)
If nothing else, go to the bank and have checking accounts/ money accounts have a "next of" line in them. You can do that at any time and is free. (More for a will type situation.)
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The other day, my dad, at 69 years of age, hippity hopped and jumped to the top of a bulk bag of seed without any trouble. (Bulk bags hold 2000 pounds and are about 5 feet tall.)
And I thought,"Damn. My Dad is going to be 70 in December. Look at him go!"
I feel very fortunate he is so healthy.
Norm, his hired man, will outlive us all. Two Januarys ago, he was in the seedhouse bagging seed by himself in 20 degree weather. (To do this, one must hoist 55 pound bags of seed and put them on a pallet.) We didn't know this at the time, he just wanted to get out of the house.
The next day, he went in for a routine doctor's visit and was admitted to the hospital to undergo a PENTA pass (5-bypass of the heart.)
Six months later, he was good as new and still helps us bag seed and work in the seedhouse. You'd never know anything was wrong with him.
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Years ago Mom wrote up a living will and made me executor with all kinds of instructions. Gave me banking and investment account authorization and access. It was a grim thing/event for me but glad she did it.
Pops on the other hand....
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Overview of 'Advanced Directives'
http://www.capefearvalley.com/patients/advance_directives.html
North Carolina Advance Health Care Directive Registry
https://www.sosnc.gov/ahcdr/
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Book: "Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End," by Atul Gawande
Well worth reading. Geriatric medicine, nursing homes, it's fascinating what we do wrong but also about the innovative ways we are discovering how to do it right.
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>Book
Does it mention that nursing homes literally bid on prospective patients that are to be discharged from hospitals?
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Advance Directive Forms by state
https://www.aarp.org/caregiving/financial-legal/free-printable-advance-directives/
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I'm still dealing with this one too... My dad is stable, and back to the habits that got him into the mess he's in.
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>Does it mention that nursing homes literally bid on prospective patients that are to be discharged from hospitals?
NO KIDDING?!? Wow.
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>>Does it mention that nursing homes literally bid on prospective patients that are to be discharged from hospitals?
>NO KIDDING?!? Wow.
Yeah, the 21-day Medicare rehab is the money-maker, but the nursing home also figures that a certain percentage will become permanent residents. This is one way they balance the 'mix' of their residents as to the type & degree of care they will require.