Author Topic: moon landing crew  (Read 415 times)

rcjordan

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moon landing crew
« on: July 19, 2019, 11:27:15 PM »
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ergophobe

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2019, 11:59:36 PM »
As Neil Armstrong said: "We went to the moon because we hadn't invented Photoshop yet."

littleman

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2019, 07:54:10 AM »
You just can't convince a dedicated non-believer.  For years my dad said to me "If they really went to the moon how come we don't have any pictures of the landing area".  Later after the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter beamed down images he denied those too.  No amount of proof will be good enough.

ergophobe

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2019, 01:00:39 AM »
You just can't convince a dedicated non-believer.

I'm not sure I posted it here in any of the New Year's threads, but my resolution one year was, "Don't try to teach people who don't want to learn."

littleman

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2019, 02:14:17 AM »
"Don't try to teach people who don't want to learn."

Trying to teach skills to people who do not want to learn has been a tremendous source of frustration and pain.  It has cost me friendships.  At times it has made be believe that one can't really help people.  I don't think that is true anymore, but I do think it is very hard and more often than not the effort will be a bust.

ergophobe

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2019, 04:39:55 AM »
At times it has made be believe that one can't really help people.

I think, rather, you need to meet people where they are. After one such conversation with a friend, my brother (who studies this sort of thing for a living), said there are models for conversation. In one model, there are five stages. I forget the details, but let's say one stage is recognizing you have a problem, the next stage is deciding you need help, the next stage is looking for help (I'm just making this up as I write). If you offer help to someone at stage 1, you're having a conversation they are not yet receptive to. So though everything you do might be useful and beneficial to the person at stage 3, you're just wasting your breath and possibly pushing the person into depression or anger if that person is at stage 1.

So the conversation in question is when a friend said he hated his life and wanted to change. I suggested some new things he might try. He was not at all receptive. My brother pointed out later that the friend wasn't really looking for solutions yet. His language showed that he was just trying to get comfortable with the idea that he might want to change or maybe even just getting comfortable with the idea that maybe there was a problem at all.

He was not yet comfortable with actually changing. So though I believe to this day that my suggestions were good (and well-meaning and non-judgmental and achievable and baby steps etc etc etc), they were ultimately detrimental to my friend.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 04:45:10 AM by ergophobe »

ergophobe

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2019, 04:43:17 AM »
Back to the original conversation... if someone is adamant that the moon landing didn't happen, they are not at a conversation stage where marshaling evidence is going to have an impact. In many cases, they have staked a part of their identity on having access to the secret knowledge that the deluded sheeple like you and me are just too stupid to see.

So if you want to talk about the evidence for a moon landing with a denialist, you have to first find out why it matters to them to run against the grain on this. If it's a basic question of identity, you're wasting your time presenting evidence. You've jumped so many stages at that point that there's no real chance of a productive conversation.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 04:45:42 AM by ergophobe »

buckworks

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2019, 02:42:19 PM »
>> In one model, there are five stages.

I'd be seriously interested to learn more about this. Can you say more, or point us to a link?

I once met a guy at a church conference who said over and over that figuring out the difference between "effective vs ineffective" was just as important as distinguishing "right vs wrong".

I think the models your brother talks about would be useful in many contexts.

BoL

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2019, 02:58:09 PM »
Quote
At times it has made be believe that one can't really help people.

Often wondered whether there's a certain combination of words that'll sort a person's way of thinking or problem, and whether that is the case all the time.

I think some people choose a belief system that keeps them happy. For some, there's the idea of the luminati controlling everything from money to clouds. I'd just take the pragmatic view that people with power will tend to want to keep it.

Sat with my parents on Saturday watching the moon landing 'live', they were the age of their grandchildren when it happened. So much for those flying cars by now.

ergophobe

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Re: moon landing crew
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2019, 06:30:55 PM »
I'd be seriously interested to learn more about this. Can you say more, or point us to a link?

I'm going to see him in a couple of weeks. I'll try to ask. I know one tool/technique is "generative conversations" (zillions of web pages on that). But that's not what he was talking about in the conversation referenced above. I'll have to ask for details