The Core
Why We Are Here => Water Cooler => Topic started by: Rupert on March 12, 2020, 05:04:39 PM
-
no idea how reliable this is:
http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2020-02/26/content_75747237_4.htm
But I had a coffee with a chap selling these to care homes a couple of years ago. It gets ride of the smell of wee, and cleans the room.
I have no idea what concentration is needed, but I found this too:
https://patents.google.com/patent/CA2602230A1/en
A method of sterilizing a closed environment is provided in which an ozone generator is placed into the closed environment; it then generates ozone to a predetermined ozone concentration and increases the humidity of the closed environment. The ozone concentration is maintained at the predetermined ozone concentration for a predetermined period of time, and after the period of time has expired, the ozone is depleted. When the ozone concentration is reduced to a predetermined safe level, the ozone generator signals.
Bought this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202919108341
Actually bought that in haste, as I dont know how much is needed. There are stronger ones that produce 5000mg/hr, but the docs seem to talk of parts per million for sterilisation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23538847
A high-level aseptic environment must be maintained in bio-cleanrooms used for the manufacture of sterile products. In the past, formaldehyde gas was most commonly used to sterilize bio-cleanrooms, but due to strict residual limitations there has been a need to develop a less toxic alternative choice. The authors have developed a revolutionary new sterilization system using a high concentration of ozone gas and used this system to sterilize an actual bio-cleanroom. This system integrates the ozone gas generator with the air conditioning system by proper control. The design specifications for the system included an ozone gas concentration of 200 ppm or more, relative humidity of 80% or more, and a sterilizing time of 120 min. Blow vents and suction ports were placed to ensure a uniform airflow which would extend through the entire room during ozone gas sterilization. Tests regarding long-term material exposure to ozone gas were conducted when the system was introduced to distinguish usable and unusable materials. In an actually constructed cleanroom, simulations were used to predict the evenness of the diffusion of ozone gas concentration and relative humidity during ozone gas sterilization, and measurements of the actual indoor ozone gas concentration, temperature and relative humidity during sterilization revealed that the ozone concentration and relative humidity needed for sterilization had been achieved generally throughout the entire environment. In addition, the CT value (mg/m(3) (=ppm) × min) , derived by multiplying the ozone gas concentration during ozone gas sterilization by the sterilization time, was equal to or greater than the target value of 24 × 10(3) (ppm·min) . When the results of sterilization in a cleanroom were confirmed using a biological indicator (BI) , negative results were obtained at all measurement points, demonstrating that sterilization was being performed effectively in the actual factory at which the ozone gas sterilization system had been introduced.
-
Seems reasonable. I just ordered 2 commercial units. One for my brother's house (he's high risk and has to go out daily for meals and required medical appointments).
https://www.amazon.com/Enerzen-Commercial-Industrial-Deodorizer-Sterilizer/dp/B01M7VOSH1?th=1
-
I've got a couple of the Enerzen units. Make sure everyone is out of the room/house while they run. They are powerful and irritate lungs.
They fix smokey AirBnBs and rental cars. Consider switching on/off remotely with an Alexa outlet (but they have timers built in). Very effective.
-
Amazon had a $20 coupon on the one you linked to RC, so I ordered it.
-
>ordered
Yeah I got the $20 coupon.
Even if it doesn't work, it'll help me feel proactive about my disabled brother and maybe help de-stress him. But I DO think it will likely help with passive decontamination of surfaces.
>lungs
You have any further tips on this machine, Trav?
-
You have any further tips on this machine, Trav?
the chap who was selling them industrially, set them going for 2 hours, and then said you had to leave the room for 3-4 hours for it to be clear. I seem to remember him saying that the o3 is unstable, so actually it was safe to enter after an hour.
It would be worth checking the facts.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=how+quick+does+o3+dissipate
How Long Does It Take For Ozone To Dissipate? Ozone will last between 30 minutes to 4 hours for the third oxygen atom to breaks apart and reverts back into oxygen. On a lower concentration level, it will typically take 30 minutes to 1-2 hours for ozone to breaks down into breathable oxygen
-
mmmm.... worth a read... no idea of accuracy again though:
https://learn.allergyandair.com/ozone-generators/
I go to the sea for my ozone... I think they are talking about a different use of ozone. Blast a room, leave it for a bit, and I think its likely fine. might kill some nastys too.
-
Man, these things are strong!
(Amazon got through, Brad.)
-
>tips
Consider combining with UV lights for best passive treatment. I like Alexa's remote-controlled plugs. Turn them off when you're headed back to the house. You'll have to figure out the dissipation timing for your application. I'd start with an hour. HVAC/ceiling fans will circulate/dissipate it more quickly. Open a window if it smells like O3 when you return.
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202003/04/WS5e5ee878a31012821727c0f4.html
-
Louise read that they'll kill plants. That's problematic.
-
>(Amazon got through, Brad.)
I'm glad yours got through RC.
Yeah, the pack mule with my canned hams was braying outside my door this morning.
Edit: I got the wrong thread. Moved stuff to the regular cornoavirus thread.
-
Louise read that they'll kill plants. That's problematic.
Want me to have a word? I have a way with women.
-
RC, Amazon got through for me too. I now have a Ozone generator, one each, delivered today.
I have no houseplants to worry about.
-
Louise is moving the plants to the foyer.
I've ordered a UV germicidal lamp. Man, nobody is shipping Prime on those and most are saying mid-April to May delivery. I bought a bulb and a lamp base and will make my own fixture. The bulb is currently out of stock but scheduled to ship by March 28. *IF* it arrives, I'll make it remote control by using Hubitat. I've also ordered a pair of cheap uv-protective glasses 'cause I tend to be slack.
-
>I've ordered a UV germicidal lamp
Ditto, but before they went out of stock.
Porch + Ring Doorbell + Light = Delivery quarantine area
Lamp also handy for a make shift mask steriliser.
-
> make shift mask steriliser.
was planning on that, too. Until then, we're going to use the o3 generators to decontaminate masks, money from atm, etc.
The smarthome stuff is coming in handy for adapting quarantine areas and touchless control.
-
mine has not been delivered, and now the price has doubled.
Just been emailed to say its out of stock.
-
I just ordered the home model.
Home air filter unit: UV, HEPA, electro static and other filters all at once. With ozone on demand. While they can't promise this will kill coronavirus it's still kinda the Big Burrito of filters having UV and all. Video worth watching.
https://www.greatvacs.com/pages/virus-uv-ozone-do-they-work
Note: I've ordered a couple of reconditioned vacuums from this company and was pleased.
-
Could ultraviolet lamps slow the spread of flu? | Science | AAAS
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/could-ultraviolet-lamps-slow-spread-flu
-
You can generate ozone with an HV spark coil, i had to stop using them for HV experiments due to the ozone generation but if your using it to zap a room then they are great for it and very cheap, or free at car scraps.
-
The 2 large-size ozone generators are working out pretty well. I just decontaminated a large shipment (20+ large, heavy boxes) of medical supplies along with some assorted Walmart online groceries we picked up. I spread them out in the garage, sprayed them with Star San disinfectant, then ozoned them for an hour with both machines.
I just got a notification that my UV lamp has shipped. Maybe it'll get here. In one piece.
-
I bought walkie-talkies, just in case.
-
> garage
RC, your garage is going to be the most sanitary place in the county! But it's a wise precaution all things considered.
> walkie-talkies
Can't hurt.
-
>UV
Coronavirus: Robots use light beams to zap hospital viruses - BBC News
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51914722
-
Sounds a simple robot to build to, except for the bit:
Meanwhile plant closures and other restrictions to curb coronavirus, have hampered getting parts. "The lack of one single component, [and] we cannot build a thing," adds Mr Guan, though he notes things have improved in the last couple of weeks, the situation has improved.
"There are not many good things to say about epidemics," says Professor Kolmus, but it has forced industry "to find new solutions".
-
TL;DR: UV good, Microwave bad.
'This study evaluated five decontamination methods [ultraviolet germicidal irradiation (UVGI), ethylene oxide, vaporized hydrogen peroxide (VHP), microwave oven irradiation, and bleach] using nine models of NIOSH-certified respirators (three models each of N95 FFRs, surgical N95 respirators, and P100 FFRs)....
...microwave oven irradiation and bleach decontamination methods investigated in this study were determined to be the least desirable among the five methods tested for consideration in future studies. UVGI, EtO, and VHP were found to be the most promising decontamination methods'
Evaluation of Five Decontamination Methods for Filtering Facepiece Respirators
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781738/
-
>UV good
15 mins each side with a 40w bulb seems like an awful long time.
-
>long time
Agree.
Just got mine (25w). NOT broken!
-
>microwave
Does HEAT kill it?
-
research has shown that a related coronavirus that causes Sars could be killed by temperatures above 56°C or 132°F (hotter than even a bath scalding enough to cause injury) at a rate of about 10,000 viral particles every 15 minutes.
Covid-19: How long does the coronavirus last on surfaces? - BBC Future
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200317-covid-19-how-long-does-the-coronavirus-last-on-surfaces
-
I'm guessing it's like Sous Vide guidelines. Hotter temps = faster safety.
-
TL;DR: UV Light
As Coronavirus Looms, Mask Shortage Gives Rise to Promising Approach
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/health/coronavirus-masks-reuse.html
-
Just ordered an ozone generator for the nursing home. (Ebay. Amz sold out.) We're going to set up a high-volume, sealed-off decontamination room for masks & gowns, using 3-5 large, wire-shelf bakers racks so that large quantities of masks and gowns can be hung to be fumigated on all sides.
>132 degrees
The nursing home has a commercial laundry system that decontaminates. I told her that the dryer could be used for bulk decontamination of unsoiled gowns & masks even if the goods had not been washed.
-
This is really good. It gives your daughter and the old folks in her charge a fighting chance. What you are doing is so important.
-
Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!
Every day counts now. We had an extra commercial O3 unit here at the house, so Louise & I drove the 8-hr round trip today to deliver it. I never got out of the car. Louise only got out armed with mask, gloves, Clorox wipes, & Lysol. We stayed 25 feet apart, yelled greetings & O3 instructions, then left.
-
>Does HEAT kill it?
Seems like it reacts like other viruses/bacteria when it comes to heat. 165 degrees for a second or 145 for 10 minutes. Here is a good article I read on food safety: https://www.seriouseats.com/2020/03/food-safety-and-coronavirus-a-comprehensive-guide.html
-
Great job RC... In the UK everyone is still down on the beach.
-
> still down on the beach
Massive problem here, too. Some mayors and a few governors are starting to get mad and giving police power to break up groups and issue tickets with fines.
Our governor has been fairly proactive, but he's dragging his feet on a lockdown. I'm guessing he'll give in and go to lockdown sometime later this week, hence the roadtrip to the nursing home. I can't trust an Ebay delivery to get there.
NC is on "forced social distancing." Basically, no events, no sit-down restaurants and bars. Based on my ride out to Walmart for the online pickup, that doesn't do much. The only thing that looked 'off' was restaurant parking lots. EVERY big box store was bustling with walk-in traffic. NO masks. Even Tractor Supply (they sell pet food & hardware) was packed. WTF!!
Yesterday's trip was a *little* better, at least the traffic count was down. Still, when I got to towns and -particularly- coastal cities, things were bustling.
When I was 13, I got to accompany my dad when he was called into a massive disaster area as an 'essential consultant.' You could see an armed soldier posted every 1000 ft (300m) and the orders were 'Shoot to kill." That would work.
-
Great job RC... In the UK everyone is still down on the beach.
Yes lots of people not taking it seriously, i predict a forced lockdown from Wednesday.
-
Yes lots of people not taking it seriously, i predict a forced lockdown from Wednesday.
Close, I had Wednesday too.
-
Yes lots of people not taking it seriously, i predict a forced lockdown from Wednesday.
Close, I had Wednesday too.
Ye they rushed that one, but the escalation is alarming, the UK's mortality rate (just using (deaths/cases*100)) is 5.26% whereas the global mortality rate is 4.4%, unless mortality rate calcs are more complex than that, i should Google it.
If the 1918 flu got a third of the population, at a time when travel was far less than it is today and the population wasn't even 2 billion then that could easily happen to us, 2 billion or more of us, if it can't be stopped.
-
This is Mexico, and no mention if they have scientific evidence that this works
Ozone tunnel set up to sanitize market shoppers
"In this tunnel, the people who pass are sanitized with oxygen, this
measure gives them protection that lasts 50 minutes with the
disinfection of clothing, hair and the entire body part so that they
can do their shopping.
"The tunnel consists of taking oxygen from the environment and
converting it into O3 oxygens that we know as ozone, what are the
advantages of ozone that kills fungi, viruses and bacteria," explained
Martín Ramírez Falcón, director of Ozone Safety."
Coronavirus Jalisco: Instalan túnel sanitario Mercado de abastos
https://www.milenio.com/politica/comunidad/coronavirus-jalisco-instalan-tunel-sanitario-mercado-abastos
-
>director of Ozone Safety.
They have a director just for ozone.
-
>a director just for ozone.
Yeah, that caught my eye, too.
-
Well, they have a FB page
https://www.facebook.com/OZONO-Inocuidad-Alimentaria-1936491566566501/
...and a truck
If you'll look at the truck pix, it appears they treat grain with o3.
-
" the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) formally approved the use of ozone as an Antimicrobial Agent for the Treatment, Storage and Processing of Foods in Gas and Aqueous Phases. The approval was published on June 26, 2001.[1] On Dec. 21, 2001, the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Food Safety and Inspection Service (USDA/FSIS) approved the use of ozone in contact with meats and poultry, from raw product up to fresh cooked and products just prior to packaging.[2] In addition to direct contact disinfection of foods, ozone also can be applied to food processing equipment and non-food contact surfaces as part of a food company’s sanitation efforts."
Recent Ozone Applications in Food Processing and Sanitation - Food Safety Magazine
https://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/magazine-archive1/octobernovember-2002/recent-ozone-applications-in-food-processing-and-sanitation/
-
So, reading through the above Food Safety article, it looks like ozone-infused water makes for an effective, no-rinse decontaminate spray for surfaces (with a pot life of 30 minutes).
Ozone-enriched water kills microbes as effectively as chlorine, and since it is generated on-site its use eliminates the need for personnel to handle, mix and dispose of harsh chemicals for sanitation. Further, since ozone readily reverts to oxygen, an end-product that leaves no residue on contact surfaces. Ozone-enriched water can be sprayed directly on floors, drains, walls, wettable equipment, tanks (externally and internally), and clean rooms via mobile or centralized systems with hand-held or drop-down, low-pressure sprayers.
I've ordered one of these;
O3 Pure Multi-Purpose Ozone Generator Water Oil Ozonator
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007ZHPRIG
-
Interesting about infusing water.
Other uses:
Since it kills molds, it could be very handy in a bathroom that always seems to have a mildew problem.
I bet it would drive mice out of a shed, attic, basement or garage.
-
>mice
An article somewhere said O3 air runs rodents and insects out of the room (to adjoining rooms). I suspect that's one of the reasons they're using it at grain bins.
>mildew
I had a few spots of mildew in the garage I'm using as a decontamination chamber. They're now gone.
> infusing water
If you'll look at that Ozone Tunnel, it looks as if there is some sort of misting going on.
-
>misting
Now that tunnel is making more sense.
-
Sanitize groceries, discard takeout containers immediately: Doctor demonstrates 'sterile technique'
https://www.foxla.com/news/sanitize-groceries-discard-takeout-containers-immediately-doctor-demonstrates-sterile-technique
-
There are also 12v models that can be used in the car before unloading it. I plan on using that as a first step before using the house model for the contents of the bags and boxes that have been decontaminated in the car.
Example: https://www.amazon.fr/G%C3%A9n%C3%A9rateur-portable-Ozoniseur-c%C3%A9ramique-St%C3%A9rilisateur/dp/B07DD963H1/
-
The little (500 ml/hr) ozone generator arrived and is pretty handy. I found big, deep pan in the attic and set it up in the garage. Produce is dumped in there directly from the car and 'bubbled' for 1/2 hour. We're likely to keep using that over the long term because it is easier to prep vegetables than washing with soap and likely to do a better job -particularly on leafy or deeply creviced items like cauliflower.
Louise likes the small size and output, so after the vegetable-cleaning duty she placed it in bathrooms around the house and let it run for an hour. Last night, she set it up in the kitchen before going to bed. That should work for 'spot sanitizing' fairly well.
>car
Yes, the 12v model should work well in your off-grid environs, Damian. Getting enough concentration is the trick and a sealed vehicle makes for a good decontamination chamber.
After we unloaded the groceries yesterday, I ran an extension cord out the garage door and ran the big O3 unit in the van for a few minutes.
-
Ozone therapy: A clinical review
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312702/
-
I put an office fan behind mine.... I just feel it helps circulate the o3 round the room better.
-
I put an office fan behind mine.... I just feel it helps circulate the o3 round the room better.
You don't want you and ozone in the same room.
-
You don't want you and ozone in the same room.
Oh no. dont do that.
-
>Ozone therapy: A clinical review
TL;DR: DO NOT start huffing O3, hhh.
Ozone Therapy: Usage, Efficacy, and More
https://www.healthline.com/health/ozone-therapy
- Directly to the tissue.
- Intravenously
- Intramuscularly
----------------------------
related:
I really like the little (500 ml/hr) "vegetable bubbler" O3 generator that pumps output through a flexible tube rather than fan-driven. This morning, I was going to buy another one and plumb it into the hot tub which I just opened up for the season. SOLD OUT, dammit.
-
If Your Only Tool Is a Hammer Then Every Problem Looks Like A Nail.
Antibacterial Activity of Freshly Prepared Ozonated Water versus Chlorhexidine on Mutans Streptococcus When Used as an Oral Rinse – A Randomised Clinical Study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5583811/
-
Regarding the ozone generator thing: do you have to leave the house while it is running?
Also, is a normal house/ room tight enough to allow the ozone to build up?
-
>house/ room tight enough to allow the ozone to build up.
Depends on the ozone output of the machine I think.
We use a 10.000mg/h in a 24 x 18 feet army tent . The ozone machine handles it no problem actually seems like overkill so strong .. I'm sure 5000 mg/h would be more then fine as well.
-
Damian, is that running it for 2 hours?
i do 2 hours in 15 x 12 x8 ft approx room at 5000mg per hour.
that is a dose of 1440 cubic feet gets 10,000 mg or approx 7mg per cubic foot or approx 700 mg per cubic meter.
It really sinks. But dissipates OK.
-
I have to admit I did not do any calculations for correct dosage .. mostly going by my nose :-\
I usually do 1 hour running the machine plus a few hours without opening the tent.
Note to self: figure out the proper dosage
-
>Also, is a normal house/ room tight enough to allow the ozone to build up?
Heavier than air I think so should fall nicely and cover.
-
>Also, is a normal house/ room tight enough to allow the ozone to build up?
You want to have all people, plants and pets out of the room you are treating with ozone for several hours after the unit quits running.
Ozone is heavier than air so if you are treating - say a bedroom - 1. you want to put the generator on the tallest furniture in the room, 2. you might want to block the gap underneath the door with a towel depending on how wide that gap is.
Out in my drafty garage, there was no ozone smell after letting it sit overnight.
I treated a bathroom for 1/2 hour and I could smell some ozone on the other side of the closed door.
-
>by nose
I have an 11000 mg/hr machine. Like Damian, I'm just winging it on the calculations but it will absolutely take your breathe away within seconds of starting it. In a 22ft x 24ft x 10ft garage, we place the items directly in the generator's air flow and run it for 30 minutes. Then opening the double garage door dissipates it in about 5 minutes. Since most items come wrapped or boxed, they usually get a repeat O3 bath after being unpacked.
Originally, I had it set up in a distant bedroom. I couldn't smell it if I stuffed a towel under the door and turned off the HVAC.
The 'vegetable washer' only generates 500 mg/hr. It pumps it out through a rubber tube rather than being fan-driven. You don't have to run away immediately when you turn that on. If you bubble it through water, its smell is more tame, but still slightly pungent. Still, I wouldn't stay in a small, enclosed space with it. We occasionally set it up in the kitchen (open floor plan) or a bathroom downstairs when we go to bed and let it run for an hour to "spot clean." Even as small as it is, we sometimes get a faint whiff of O3 upstairs. O3 is strong stuff!
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007ZHPRIG
-
a 22ft x 24ft x 10ft garage, we place the items directly in the generator's air flow and run it for 30 minutes.
Thats 1mg per cubic foot I think.
This is the chap I met with he has a page on it:
https://ozofreshplugin.co.uk/corona-information/
The following is true to the best of our knowledge in relation to the effectiveness of ozone and how this applies to our products.
Ozone based products are known to be effective in controlling virus (such as swine flu) and this means it will likely be effective against other strains.
The amount and method of use must be appropriate for effective application.
We cannot state (for the reasons above) that our or any ozone product will be totally effective.
Some ozone products, such as our ProCleanz environmentally friendly surface cleaner have tested to the EN1276 standard which means they are effective against the flu virus H1N1, E-coli, Salmonella and have a 99.9% bacterial kill rate.
We understand several apparently legitimate sources in China and Thailand are recommending the use of ozone-generating devices such as ours to protect against the coronavirus.
Ozone products must not be relied upon to eradicate Corona Virus, however, they are known, when used correctly, to be effective against other similar pathogens.
But nothing on dose.
-
So, how do you go into the house after treatment to move the machine?
I guess...how dangerous is it to go into the room/ house just to open the window to let it air?
Do you mask up? Or, hold your breath? Or? How many seconds do you have before you risk being harmed?
-
Leave it a couple of hours. Ozone is unstable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone
It is also unstable at high concentrations, decaying into ordinary oxygen. Its half-life varies with atmospheric conditions such as temperature, humidity, and air movement. Under laboratory conditions, Half-Life Time (HLT) will average ~1500 minutes (25 hours) in still air at room temperature (24°C), zero humidity with zero air changes per hour (ACH).[25] As such, in typical office or home environment, where air changes per hour vary between 5 and 8 ACH [26], ozone has a half life of as short as thirty minutes.[27]
-
Another question: if it sinks, how do you get it out of a basement?
-
Another question: if it sinks, how do you get it out of a basement?
It just turns to oxygen over time.
-
Dose.
OK my sums were out a bit there. Trying to convert from m3 to cubic feet mid calc instead of sticking with one or the other. I will go metric to make it easier:
If the room is approx 5m x4m x 2.5m = 50 m3
Machine generates 5000mg per hour and runs for 2 hours = 10,000mg or 10g total ( it degrades so it is less than that but not worked it out yet)
10g/50m3 = 0.2g/m3
Best answer gives a requirement in PPM, so we need to convert the 0£ concentration to PPM or parts per million. This is hopefully best answer:
https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_can_we_calculate_ozone_concentration_in_litre_hour
1 g O3/m3 = 467 ppm by volume
My concentration is therefore 93.4 ppm.
Again not sure of the providence of this study, but here is one doing the same calc for SARS:
https://www.ozonetech.com/sites/default/files2/pdf/Ozone_disinfection_of_SARS_Contaminated_Areas.pdf
It talks about the degradation of the O3 and they adjusted the PPM between 0.5 2.5 and 5 PPM I guess by turning on and off the unit. The graph shows the PPM going up and down, so I am guessing that is the on and off.
For air born particles of bacteria 5 PPM kills 90%
So my does is high.
-
Thanks Rupert! That helps.
Seems like my dosage is more then enough for me as well.
I looked up the Air Flow Volume in CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) output of my machine as it seems needed for a more accurate calculation.
My calculation seems to indicate 2 minutes of running the machine would already be enough to reach 5ppm.
I made a spreadsheet with the formula as I understood it .. if anybody wants to verify my calculations and/or calculate their needs.
Spreadsheet attachments not allowed here so : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ebYMMWAO1YV8nJBea1Eu2y6fSJMhAnmYPwOOCdcMQDE/edit?usp=sharing
The highlighted yellow and orange parts are auto-calculated and the goal should presumably be to to arrive at a concentration of 5 PPM or more.
-
Even better. :) Now I am wondering if in 2 mins, the ppm is going to be evenly spread around the room. The experiment had a fan to help the ozone move about. If mine is on a chair, and the ozone is heavier than air, then the top half of the room with have a lower density.
so mail left on the floor is OK. I think I am going to run mine for 20 mins.
-
Looks like the groceries got to her...
NC woman gets COVID-19 despite staying home for three weeks
https://nypost.com/2020/04/13/nc-woman-gets-covid-19-despite-staying-home-for-three-weeks/
-
Looks like the groceries got to her...
NC woman gets COVID-19 despite staying home for three weeks
https://nypost.com/2020/04/13/nc-woman-gets-covid-19-despite-staying-home-for-three-weeks/
Either the groceries or kissing someone she shouldn't.
-
5 ppm might be too low to kill viruses.
The document and experiment mentioned earlier in this thread went to 200 ppm for 120 minutes (for a bioclean room)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23538847
Appearently air humidity is also important.. 80% and up is good.
Here they seem satisfied with 20-25 ppm
Development of a Practical Method for Using Ozone Gas as a Virus Decontaminating Agent
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01919510902747969
-
mmm, OK so my 20 mins is now looking low. An hour should do it, but I think I will go back to the 2 hours on the basis that it has a half life of 30 mins....
Actually it might never get high enough.....
Need to calc the Cmax, wow thats beyond my maths grade....
-
I'm going to post this, but it feels sketchy...
Ozone Therapy Proving Successful In Covid-19 Patients | The Ibizan
https://theibizan.com/ozone-therapy-proving-successful-in-covid-19-patients/
-
half life of 30 mins....
That is highly dependent on conditions. At -50C in a closed chamber with no contaminants, it is over a month. At 100C it's just a few minutes. Also affected by humidity, the number of organics and oxidative (right word) materials it comes in touch with.
I think to do it right if you want it as a primary defense, you need to get a meter. That ensures that the levels get high enough and ensures they get low enough before your re-enter the space. The only downside is the meters are way more expensive than the generators. About $400 for a basic one. I'm winging it for now and thinking of it as an "extra" not a "primary" measure. But if I find that months down the line I'm still using it, I might invest in a meter.
The general rule seems to be that you should not enter a room until concentration falls below 0.02ppm and that takes about an hour if you disinfect to a 0.5ppm to 5ppm level.
A 30-minute run at that level resulted in
- 72% reduction in airborne bacteria at a 0.5ppm level
- 93% reduction at 2.5ppm
- 90% reduction after 30 mins at a 5ppm level, showing there isn't a lot of benefit past a certain point, partly because in the real world most rooms cannot be fully sealed during the process.
That's not a 30-minute run time on the machine. That's keeping the machine on for 30 minutes after the concentration reaches a given level and then waiting until it falls to a safe level to enter the room.
Viruses are supposedly more susceptible to ozone than bacteria, so the idea is that the virus reduction would be the same or better.
https://www.ozonetech.com/sites/default/files2/pdf/Ozone_disinfection_of_SARS_Contaminated_Areas.pdf
Some studies have found that even at concentrations of 100ppm to 1000ppm, it is difficult to get significant biocidal action, especially on porous materials. Unfortunately, on the abstract of that study seems to be available for free
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01919510903043772
-
Ergo, Very good points.
However dont you only need a meter if you are using it in an unheated room?
Otherwise just work on room temperature, and provided you are sure you over saturate, its fine I think .
-
>meter
You guys buy it and I'll borrow it.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BFK3PQS
-
However dont you only need a meter if you are using it in an unheated room?
I don't need a meter at all until RC buys one and lets me borrow it.
I think you *need* a meter if you are selling disinfection services and are making a business of it.
I'm not 100% sure how I'll use them yet, but my plan is to let the run longer than I think I need and then let them sit idle longer than I think I need. It would be nice to have a meter just once or twice to calibrate.
I'm also thinking of using one in the sauna which, in that small space, should get it to a concentration to kill mildew. I really like that idea, because I don't like the idea of cleaning the sauna with chemicals that absorb into the wood and then volatilize when thing heats up.
-
Do you think these work?
https://www.a1-cbiss.com/gas18l.html
I agree, it would be nice to calibrate... This stuff stinks.
I think your best bet is as you say, borrow RCs ;)
Or Added:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/202172094494
Build a detector... at £16, add it to a PI
-
>these work?
Yes. Good find. I'd never heard of them but a quick search finds them offered by well-known industrial supply houses like Grainger.
The question, though, is are they single-use? Here they are for $8 each.
Draeger Gas Detector Tubes (10 per box) - Ozone (O3)
https://www.gasdetectionwarehouse.com/draeger-gas-detector-tubes-10-per-box-ozone-o3/
<+>
Phooey! Requires a pump.
Sensidyne Colorimetric Gas Detector Tubes | Sensidyne
https://www.sensidyne.com/colorimetric-gas-detector-tubes/
Phooey2! Single use.
How Do Gas Detector Tubes Work? | Zefon International
https://www.zefon.com/gas-detector-tube-uses
-
Eeek.. those pumps aren't cheap. not so good find then :) What about the electronics? Would something like that go on a PI do you think?
Or Arduino
-
>electronics
That might be a contender. Here it is on Amz;
Amazon.com: SainSmart MQ131 Ozone Gas Detection Sensor Module: Toys & Games
https://www.amazon.com/SainSmart-MQ131-Detection-Sensor-Module/dp/B00KBX08L2
Too bad I don't have a clue about connecting pi or arduino.
<+>
No good. Chips are not calibrated.
-
I can help with arduino stuff, i've used gas sensors before with them.
-
Let me talk with Xi Jinping and see what his minions might have available on the cheap.
-
Let me talk with Xi Jinping and see what his minions might have available on the cheap.
If he's too pricey i have some connections in Shenzhen ;+}
But seriously though, i've made small CO2 sensor nets with Unos, the code is simple as is the wiring, you can master/slave them to make polling easy. Noone needs my help, anyone here could learn it in half an hour even without coding or electronics experience.
-
<warp>
Researchers Prove Ozone Effective in Disinfecting Covid | Hamodia.com
https://hamodia.com/2021/02/17/researchers-prove-ozone-effective-disinfecting-covid/
-
> Prove
This is great news. It's nice to confirm you were on the right track all along, RC.
-
> RC
We owe it all to Rupert for first mentioning that salesman selling O3 machines to care homes.
-
Yea Rupert! Thanks for that.
Honestly, more good info came from Th3 Core members throughout this pandemic than from any other source. Especially in the really early days when nobody was sure what would work or not, and in the US, we were actively being told bogus information.
Thank you all.
-Brad
-
more good info came from Th3 Core members throughout this pandemic than from any other source
I get a lot of queries from friends as one of the best-informed in my circle. The other day some "huge" thing happened and I knew nothing about it. I said, "There's this forum and most of my news comes from there, and this guy named RC Jordan has a heavily hacked RSS reader. So if something happens that gets filtered by his negative keyword list, I probably don't know about it."
-
>Yea Rupert! Thanks for that.
Yeah! Yea Rupert! Thanks for that. Truthfully, ozone generators would never have crossed my mind. They have been the linchpin of our home setup.
> negative keyword list
It will do positive keywords, too. I do have a few set up.
>Researchers Prove Ozone Effective
>Th3core
I sent that article to my wife and daughters - all O3 disciples. Their reply was "They should have just talked to you guys and saved themselves the trouble.'
-
BTW, friend just borrowed my ozone machine because his girlfriend moved into an apartment in an older building that had that older building funky smell. They ran it for two hours, which helped. Then the next day they ran it for three hours. He said that even though they waited four hours after the machine stopped, there was still an ozone smell they had to air out, but after two treatments, the musty old building smell was gone.
So the thing has its household uses - eliminates odors, kills spiders and other insects, fights mold and mildew. Oh, and kills houseplants. There was one they forgot to remove and he said the petals were not affected, but the leaves were completely destroyed.
-
>fights mold and mildew
As I've posted in another thread, it has been constantly wet here since Thanksgiving. February has just broken the all-time record for Feb rainfall ...looks like we're going to end up with somewhere between 5 to 6 inches this month. Even though attic fans run when the humidity is high, that can't be enough when the weather outside just never dries up. I plan to heavily ozone the attic when it starts warming up.
>ozone smell they had to air out
We ozone the groceries we pick from Walmart while they're still in the van. Just set the generator in the rear and close the tailgate. The O3 concentration gets really high in such a small, tight space. Our masks, even those stored in the glove box, smell faintly of ozone 3 or 4 days later. That stuff penetrates.
>>fights mold and mildew
And salmonella, listeria, & e. coli, according to some studies I found. I rss some food safety sites and the big, BIG culprits in food poisoning and contamination are greens, slaws, and pre-packaged salad vegetables. We use this
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007ZHPRIG
Works great.
-
It creates a wash solution rich in O3?
When I was looking up concentrations and such, I saw that a lot of the numbers are for O3 in water for water treatment, but at the time I considered it noise since I was trying to work out the concentrations in air.
-
>wash solution
It pumps out a steady air stream of o3 through 1/8" tubing. There's a porous bubbler stone that goes on the end of the tube if you want to sink it in water. So you can either run the output dry or wet/submerged. Runs on a timer in 5 minute increments. We use one -dry- in the garage in a small cooler to disinfect the mail and small packages. On packaged vegetables (cauliflower, for example) I just clip the corner of the bag and insert the tube directly in the bag. For whole heads of lettuce or cabbage, we fill a 3 gallon pot with water and bubble-wash it for 30 minutes.
Other than smell, I have no way to gauge the concentration, but it is definitely putting out a pretty good little stream of ozone.
-
One idea... Against The thousands I get from you Guys... the steadying voices.....The chats in the morning or late at night... So thank you.
I think RC get the vote for the man who made it happen. My O3 generator is at the holiday house, not being used as no one is allowed to go! >:(
-
>holiday house
Two of my daughters traveled with their families over the past year using both hotels and airbnbs. They made a practice of decontaminating the rooms and to-go meals during their stays. When we start traveling again, we plan to do the same for a while.
>>wash solution
Somewhere in all my searching, I ran across an NIH study that said O3 water was equally effective as the antibacterial periodontal rinse used by dentists & periodontists. I bought a couple of machines for the bathrooms and we make our own mouthwash. It has little or no taste and completely neutralizes the toothpaste aftertaste so I can enjoy my morning coffee and Nothing Hour.
-
I can enjoy my morning coffee and Nothing Hour.
Now you are talking !
-
That's intriguing. I'm going to have to look into that. We were just talking about making our own chemical mouthwash since we have gallons of hydrogen peroxide purchased when it looked like getting disinfectants might be hard
-
Results:
The interpretation of clinical and microbial data is from baseline to 7 th day. A higher percentage of plaque index (12%), gingival index (29%) and bleeding index (26%) reduction was observed using ozone irrigation as compared to chlorhexidine. The percentile reduction of Aa (25%) using ozone was appreciable as compared to no change in Aa occurrence using chlorhexidine. By using O 3 and chlorhexidine, there was no antibacterial effect on Porphyromonas gingivalis (Pg) and Tannerella forsythensis. The antifungal effect of ozone from baseline (37%) to 7 th day (12.5%) was pronounced during the study period, unlike CHX, which did not demonstrate any antifungal effect.
The use of ozonated water and OR 0.2% chlorhexidine in the treatment of periodontitis patients: a clinical and microbiologic study - PubMed
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20930341/
==============
"Conclusions
Dentistry is changing as we are now using modern science to practice dentistry. In comparison with classical medicine modalities such as antibiotics and disinfectants, ozone therapy is quite inexpensive, predictable and conservative. The ozone therapy has been more beneficial than present conventional therapeutic modalities. This state of the art technology allows us to take a minimally invasive and conservative approach to dental treatment. The elucidation of molecular mechanisms of ozone further benefits practical application in dentistry. Treating patients with ozone therapy reduces the treatment time with a great deal of difference and it eliminates the bacterial count more precisely. The treatment is completely painless and increases the patients' acceptability and compliance with minimal adverse effects. Although more clinical research has to be done to standardize indications and treatment procedures of ozone therapy, still many different approaches are so promising, or already established, that hopefully the use of ozone therapy becomes a standard treatment for disinfection of an operation sites in dentistry."
Ozone therapy in periodontics
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3307081/
--------------------------------
" Because of the beneficial biological effects of ozone, due to its antimicrobial and immunostimulating effect, it is well indicated in the treatment of gingival and periodontal diseases."
Application of ozone in the treatment of periodontal disease
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3722714/
-
That's super interesting. My wife has had a lot of gum problems that have baffled dentists. They basically have said they just don't see people who take such good care of their teeth have such problems.
And you're doing this with the O3 Pure device?
-
> you're doing this with the O3 Pure device?
Yes. Works as well as straight peroxide based on personal observations, maybe a little better. We put O3 solution in a water flosser to get it under the gum line. Just drop the O3 discharge tube in the filled reservoir.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=portable+oral+irrigator
-
Thanks. We already have the water flosser and Theresa's dentist suggested an H2O2 rinse.
Interesting idea to use O3 instead.
-
I just saw this consumer level ozone sprayer for disinfecting and cleaning.
https://boingboing.net/2021/03/16/this-ozone-sprayer-cleans-disinfects-and-sanitizes-without-toxic-chemicals.html
-
Good find! So I went digging...
https://www.amazon.com/O3Waterworks-Sanitizing-Produces-Effective-Bacteria/dp/B088VL9ZL5
bottle creates approx. 1.5ppm or 1.5 mg/l. Do not use distilled or de-ionized water.
<++>
1.5mg/l not strong enough to be classified as a disinfectant. Just a sanitizer.
What Is Aqueous Ozone: How Do O3Waterworks Sanitizers Work? | The Strategist
https://nymag.com/strategist/article/aqueous-ozone-o3waterworks-investigation.html[/sup]
https://www.amazon.com/HoMedics%C2%AE-Multipurpose-Deodorizer-Refillable-Appliances/dp/B08K3RW1W1
user checked the concentration twice using the 4 minute cycle. It reads 0.11 ppm.
https://www.amazon.com/EnozoPRO-Sanitizing-Ozone-Spray-Cleaner/dp/B07VTQY4JR (pandemic pricing)
I'll run these by the nursing home, for sure. Thanks.
<+++>
To wrap up my research on aqueous ozone, I found a tech article that said you need 500ppm to be a hospital grade disinfectant.
<++++> (rabbit hole)
AQUEOUS OZONE PATHOGEN SUMMARY TESTING SPONSORED BY TERSANO, INC.
Results from Tersano testing showing the power of aqueous ozone and the time required to destroy various
bacteria at a strength of 2 ppm or less.
MICRO-ORGANISM GROUP STANDARD REDUCTION TIME
ODOR TEST RESULTS
Proteus mirabilis - Bacteria Fabric Surface Sanitizer Method >99% 30 secs
BACTERIA TEST RESULTS
E.coli - Bacteria Fruit and Vegetable Antibacterial Wash Test > 99.99% 30 secs
Listeria - Bacteria Fruit and Vegetable Antibacterial Wash Test > 99.99% 30 secs
S. choleraesuis - Bacteria Fruit and Vegetable Antibacterial Wash Test > 99.99% 30 secs
Aqueous Ozone is approved by the EPA, FDA, USDA, is considered GRAS, and is compliant with the
EPA Organic Program as a natural and effective cleaner and sanitizer.
https://www.compassonehealthcare.com/files/2616/0691/8284/5Pillar_app08tersano.pdf
----------------------
The technical definition of sanitizer vs disinfectant:
Sanitizer - kill 99.9% certain bacteria, in a specific period of time, and are regulated by the EPA.
Disinfectant - kill 99.999% of a wider range of microorganisms; bacteria, viruses, mildews, or fungi, in a specific period of time, and are also regulated by the EPA.
-
Will they oxidize surfaces? Seems like water + O3 = rapid oxidation. Should be fine for stainless steel, but I wonder about other surfaces, especially metals
-
>metal
Absolutely. I have a campy-looking metal cabinet in the master bath for my daily medical equipment. That small vegetable washer O3 generator is located just above it on the corner of the vanity. We've mentioned that O3 is heavier than air, so it cascades down to the top of the metal cabinet. Over the past year, it has rusted a 6" x 6" spot where the O3 hits.
-
I came across this today. A "certified building biologist" who warns that she has had some good and some bad experiences using ozone in houses.
https://www.mychemicalfreehouse.net/2019/07/using-ozone-to-clean-up-toxins.html
-
The large one I'm using says it is rated for 11,000mg/hr
About 2 weeks ago, I o3'd one of the double closets in the master bedroom. letting it run in a confined space with clothing & shoes for 1.5 hrs. AFAIK, no negatives but it did take a day or more for the lingering o3 smell to go away.
-
Ours is smaller, but our friend wanted to get rid of embedded pet smells from a previous resident in her apartment. A couple hours was not enough. The next day she did something like 6 hours. That seemed to help. No damage (she removed all plants).
But this came up today because we were looking into mold remediation, which apparently requires very high concentrations over long periods of time (24-48 hours). As mentioned in the article, it's long enough that you have to be sure to introduce new O2 otherwise... I didn't read carefully enough to understand the otherwise. Apparently if you don't have enough O2 to convert to O3, things get a bit crazy.
So kind of an edge case, but it made me realize that our plan to lend the unit to friends for mold remediation in a shared housing type of situation - basically a dormitory in a very porous building from the 1930s - was probably not prudent.
-
My understanding is that it can break down other materials, and so make the room virtually uninhabitable.
-
Yes, the woman in the article said she ruined one house. There are things like polyurethane with formaldehyde that become *more* toxic after ozoning. Also natural rubbers and all sorts of other materials can be negatively impacted. At high enough doses, even wood.
So it's one thing to dose to the point of killing coronavirus on surfaces and in the air, but the amount required to kill mold that might be rooted in fabrics and even wood is really toxic. And if the mold is in the walls, of course ozone is no help since it only goes to places with airflow.
-
>My understanding is that it can break down other materials
My nephew's wife had some badly burnt bones (making bone broth, didn't have enough water in the pot, left the house...) that made the house unlivable. They initially just wanted to bring in some ozone machines but after talking to a home restoration company they were advised against that since the ozone at the levels they would have needed would have greatly reduced the lifespan of all their clothes, carpets, sofas, etc.