Author Topic: Robots vs constant employee turnover  (Read 1567 times)

Mackin USA

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Robots vs constant employee turnover
« on: October 27, 2017, 11:02:08 AM »
JUST A THOUGHT

While my sons seek additional funding for their robots they have been told by several investors that ROBOTS can be a solution to constant employee turnover.

I remember when we lived in Hawaii we were friends with a man who owned several  McDonald's.
He always said that he was not in the burger business BUT the employment biz. It drove him NUTS
Mr. Mackin

rcjordan

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2017, 02:30:12 PM »
I split this out because I know from experience that this is a big deal.  For the average small biz, turnover is a constant problem that can simply drain the business.  I ducked it somewhat by focusing on 1099-based businesses like real estate, construction sub-contractors, or lone-wolf web development but I still couldn't escape it entirely.


Mackin USA

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Mr. Mackin

rcjordan

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 04:09:29 PM »
Walmart is rolling out shelf scanning robots in stores, but says they won’t replace people.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/27/walmart-is-rolling-out-shelf-scanning-robots-in-stores-but-says-they-wont-replace-people/

Maybe they won't immediately replace current employees but they will reduce future hires if WM is to get the same amount of work done.   Alternatively, they could flog the current employees to raise their productivity.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 04:12:07 PM by rcjordan »

littleman

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rcjordan

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2022, 08:44:33 PM »

littleman

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2022, 09:21:05 PM »
It's something to watch those bots in action.  I was playing the video when my teen walked by.  She said, "I don't like that, there isn't going to be anymore jobs."

ergophobe

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2022, 06:51:25 PM »
there isn't going to be anymore jobs

This is sort of the utopian robot future

Covid has reset relations between people and robots
Machines will do the nasty jobs; human beings the nice ones
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/covid-has-reset-relations-between-people-and-robots/21807815?


Quote
Even so, the rise of robots makes some people fear for their jobs and ask how they will earn a living. “It’s a good question. I get it every week,” says Dr Christensen. He replies that jobs which robots undertake are usually dull, repetitive and strenuous—and, post-covid, such jobs are getting harder to fill. In many industries it is less a desire to reduce labour costs that is driving automation than the sheer difficulty of recruiting flesh-and-blood workers.

Quote
There is a similar fear in health care that robots will destroy jobs. But this is a myth, Michelle Johnson told the meeting. Dr Johnson is the director of the Rehabilitation Robotics Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, and currently works in Botswana on ways to use robots to help people recover from illness and injury. Even in America, let alone Africa, “there are just not enough clinicians to do the job,” she adds.

littleman

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2022, 06:33:46 AM »
>Machines will do the nasty jobs; human beings the nice ones

This is what has happened throughout modern history when innovation replaces hard labor, and I hope it continues.   I wonder though, with robots getting more affordable and smarter if the innovation will outpace our ability to adapt?  I feel like there are structural problems, at least in this country, that need to get corrected.  There are a whole lot of unskilled, uneducated Americans that rely on grunt work for a living.

rcjordan

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2022, 01:14:22 PM »
>There are a whole lot of unskilled, uneducated Americans that rely on grunt work for a living

THIS!

Brad

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2022, 02:32:25 PM »
>There are a whole lot of unskilled, uneducated Americans that rely on grunt work for a living

Let's just say it: you risk a lot of very dangerous political unrest if you can't keep people honestly employed.  FDR recognized this during the Great Depression and created such things as the WPA, CCC, and rural electrification amongst other things just to keep men employed as a bridge until the economy got better.

ergophobe

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2022, 09:10:52 PM »
I've been... I don't want to say thinking about this. I should say "rattling this around my head." What I mean by that is having random thoughts, some of which contradict each other with one opinion sometimes undercutting another. But here are some thoughts. I'm curious to get responses.

>>throughout modern history

Yes and no. For a historian, "modern history" means everything since 1500. I'll assume you mean more recent than that. Still, I think it bears mentioning that in the early phases of industrialization, the various forms of automation often increased human drudgery.

One way you could think of it is that before industrialization, machines (plows, sickles, hammers, saws) were appendages of humans. With industrialization, humans became appendages of machines. Factory work involved more drudgery and suffering than the artisanal work it replaced. True, it also brought with it a lot more wealth and it required fewer and fewer people to do drudge work. So in that sense, yes, it liberated millions, maybe billions of people from drudgery and allowed them to become SEOs. But for the ones who continued to do that work, it was more soul crushing than ever.

This was basically the position of the Luddites and they were mostly right. It also underlies Steinbeck's description of "the tractor man" in Grapes of Wrath. I've been reading some Wendell Berry lately and that's a big topic of his as well.

We're seeing a similar thing now. I worked in a warehouse for a year in 1987-1988. It was actually a good job. Lots of time alone with my thoughts. If we reached the end of the day and hadn't shipped all our orders, we clocked out and showed up an hour early the next morning. Sure, I was on my feet all day, but it was nothing like the soul-crushing work people do in a much more automated Amazon warehouse today.

Automation means it takes fewer people to do that job, but it may mean that for the ones who are left, the work becomes worse and more drudgery.

>> outpace our ability to adapt?

I think that's a given. Again, the Luddites are a good example. It was true that in the long run the industrialized weaving raised the living standards. However, the actual displaced workers were worse off than their fathers. But here's the bad part - so were their children. The benefits finally accrued to their grandchildren.

This is a good article
HOW HARD WILL THE ROBOTS MAKE US WORK?
https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/27/21155254/automation-robots-unemployment-jobs-vs-human-google-amazon

Similar
Robots were supposed to take our jobs. Instead, they’re making them worse.
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22557895/automation-robots-work-amazon-uber-lyft

So your daughter is not wrong to voice her concern. Of course, she has some incredible advantages over other kids. Above all she has you as a father. But still, her concern makes sense.

>> structural problems... grunt work for a living.

This is the part that I've been thinking about. There are a couple of narratives that I hear a lot. One concerns the need to educate young people so they can qualify for better jobs. The other, very similar, is the need to retrain older people so they can qualify for better jobs.

That makes sense if we are talking about a coal miner whose skills are entirely wrapped up in coal mining. That job (hopefully) won't exist and that person will need a new job and as a society I don't think it's fair that our climate agenda should fall so heavily on the shoulders of people who can least afford it.

On the other hand, there will always be unskilled jobs. It only takes a couple of days to train someone to drive a small snowplow, but that is a job that is going to be super hard to automate. We will need people to do that job.

To me the solution is not training people to do more skilled labor, it is recognizing that people who do unskilled labor should make a living wage.

Similarly, there are some jobs that will always be seasonal. A national park simply cannot function without seasonal labor. If those people have a winter job at a ski area, that means they typically need to choose jobs that do not have seasonal overlap and since seasons are unpredictable, it means they really can only work 9-10 months per year. Even worse, their work will be at most 6 months for any one organization, which means no benefits in the messed up US system. And these are not necessarily unskilled jobs and they are not jobs you can automate -- ski lift mechanics and law enforcement rangers and so on.

So we have a rich society where people want to visit national parks, go skiing, go to golfing, go to Disneyland, but our solution to the bad pay of the jobs that make those things function is to educate and train those employees out of those jobs into a different one.

What is the end point of that? The logical end point of the "train them for better jobs" strategy is to shut down all the parks and ski areas and golf courses because all those people have other jobs that are not crappy seasonal jobs.

Somehow as a society, we have to decide that we value parks and therefore value the people who make them run. We value snow removal, and therefore value the people who remove it. I see the "train them all to be coders" mentality as a complete dead end, not because it won't work (though it won't), but because if it DID work, it would basically take away from us many of the things those of us with a bit of money and leisure value doing with that money and leisure. It's a cultural dead end.

>> dangerous political unrest

That is the essential point, the prize to keep your eyes on. It's where the extreme libertarians just fail. At a certain point, a society becomes unstable. The welfare society exists not so much because of a deep-rooted sense of fairness, but because it is one of the cheapest ways to keep people out of your living room with pitchforks and torches. Desperate people do desperate things and once you go too far down that road, it can be very hard to climb your way back to a peaceful and civilized society.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2022, 09:20:02 PM by ergophobe »

Brad

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Re: Robots vs constant employee turnover
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2022, 11:24:10 PM »
>desperate

You hit it Ergo.

This is important.  It's not just jobs and welfare: people need to have hope that things will get better, not just for them but for their children.  IMHO a lot of this populism in US politics is about the working middle class loosing hope.  Family farmers, assembly line workers, even some of the skilled trades are seeing everything they know disappearing at an increasingly fast pace and they have played The Game, sending their kids to university and the kid comes out loaded with debt and even with a degree the future seems bleak because everything is getting off-shored or automated which is great for big corporations but doesn't do squat for them.