Author Topic: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.  (Read 1453 times)

rcjordan

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Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« on: March 03, 2018, 02:01:37 PM »
Better get those wind turbines cranking.

Perfect storm for energy supplies as UK runs on empty

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For decades Britain was able to rely on a bounty of gas and oil from North Sea reserves. Its Seventies heyday meant Britain was a net exporter of gas as recently as 2005. However, as oil and gas fields have gently declined, production has fallen to less than 40pc of its peak in 2000.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/03/03/perfect-storm-energy-supplies-uk-runs-empty/

Rupert

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2018, 03:19:05 PM »
Meanwhile this is struggling to get going because of the antis:

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/environment/fracking-analysis-why-our-fracking-picture-in-the-north-is-vastly-different-to-that-in-the-south-1-8984051

The antis I meet, all drive cars, and have central heating.

There is more gas down there, that is easier to get and will be better regulated than anything in the US Macella shale. It would solve the issue for another 50 plus years by some estimates.

What is does to climate change I dont know, but not sure then can be stopped or reversed.
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buckworks

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2018, 03:43:01 PM »
>> The antis I meet, all drive cars, and have central heating.

Alas, I'm guilty of the same double-think, although in our climate I won't apologize for central heating.
 
But we drive a lot.

rcjordan

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2018, 04:45:47 PM »
North Carolina's eastern-most rural coastal regions never had natural gas until the last 15 years or so.  Even now, it's usually schools, government, and large buildings that have access to the meager infrastructure (mains) available.

Rupert

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2018, 06:02:40 PM »
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Alas, I'm guilty of the same double-think

Hats off for being aware of it :) Do do you think the cost of Gas shoud be increaseed say x10 instead?
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ergophobe

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2018, 03:25:32 AM »
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Alas, I'm guilty of the same double-think

Hats off for being aware of it :) Do do you think the cost of Gas shoud be increaseed say x10 instead?

I'm curious what Buckworks says, but I don't. I think carbon should be priced high enough to achieve the needed goal (capping carbon at a trillion tons measured from 2000, I believe). That price is a fair bit lower than 10x. I do think the climate crisis and WMDs are the biggest threats to the long term stability of our civilization.

The price should be the minimum price needed to achieve the desired outcome. There's nothing to be gained by unnecessary economic dislocation.

>>doublethink

I struggle with that. Do I never want to travel? I just flew across the continent to see my dad who is 88. Currently, my compromise is to buy some sort of carbon offset for every flight. I wish you could select a setting on Amazon that would offset your shipping carbon footprint (UPS offers this). Some people have suggested that rather than buying carbon offsets, you should buy politicians who support climate action to offset the politicians the Koch brothers have purchased.

Rupert

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2018, 09:26:55 AM »
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say x10 instead
That was as you rightly point out, plucked from the air.  A big number but not that crazy.

acordinbg to this The difference between saudi and Norway is quite dramatic:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/221368/gas-prices-around-the-world/

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>>doublethink

We are going to burn it. The question to me is who burns it, and the timescale. Same with the Amazon jungle, but hopefully not.  We are still stripping out huge areas for agreculture/logging whatever you want to call it.

I think paying a carbon tax just moves the money about, I have no faith that it will end in the right hands. (Have I woken very cynical today, someone help me out of this hole please! )
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ergophobe

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2018, 05:21:35 PM »
We are going to burn it.

I don't believe that actually. Look at what's happening with coal. Oil is next. Look at what happened with wood. Sure, the Amazon is being stripped, but not for fuel. We value forests for things other than fuel. Fossil fuels may continue to be used for plastics and many other things, but as for wood, we will have other things that are cheaper to burn and oil will be used elsewhere.

Did you know that the critical energy crisis in classical Athens was for heating wood, which encouraged some early passive solar designs? Did you know that in 16th-century France, people put winter coats on when the *entered* a house because wood was scarce so the houses were often as cold as the outdoors and yet people had stopped moving, so they needed more layers (French travelers to Eastern Europe would remark on how people would *remove* their coats when they entered a house).

Did you know that Vermont has more forest now than it did in 1900 even though many people still burn wood?

By your logic, though, there should not be a tree standing in Vermont, Greece or France.

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I think paying a carbon tax just moves the money about

Well yes, that is the sort of the point. I could say the same of any tax. Gasoline is taxed. That's just moving money about, but moving that money about is what pays for the state highway system in most places. For that matter, I could say the same thing of the entire global finance industry and investment industry. It's just moving money about. But it has real impacts, good and bad, on the world.

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I have no faith that it will end in the right hands.

Now there's the thorny part.

I think it's a question of how you structure it. They messed up in British Columbia by creating exceptions and letting it get jerrymandered and by not having any import adjustment. That was just folly.

There are several possible models
 - The Norwegian model, where it goes into a trust. *Never* going to fly in the US and probably not in the UK even.
 - The Alaska model, where the revenue is simply returned to citizens every year to spend as they like
 - The Big Government model where the money is funneled to mitigation and solutions. This probably wouldn't even fly in Norway.

So option 2 is the only one on the table. Basically, what that does is it makes carbon-based fuel more expensive for people, but gives them pocket money to either just pony up for that fuel, or put those dollars toward other fuel. As it stands now, the vast, vast majority of subsidies worldwide do go fossil fuels. Orders of magnitude greater than non-fossil fuels, without even counting the indirect subsidies (i.e. healthcare costs driven by fossil fuels, to say nothing of military costs).

So the carbon fee and dividend is a way of leveling that playing field and making up for decades of fossil fuel subsidy. It will
 - save lives
 - save healthcare costs
 - come out as a wash for most people

There are two keys that must happen to make it work
 - import adjustments so that local concrete manufacturers don't compete against someone who is not paying a carbon tax (concrete is super carbon-intensive, roughly 7% of the global total output).
 - no exceptions, it just works like in Alaska. Revenue comes in and out without picking winners and losers and without making moral decisions (aside from, depending on how you view it, the initial decision to have the fee and dividend*).

The latter is a tough one to sell in the lobby-intensive US.

Right now the sticking point is that the right won't vote for the fee and the left won't vote for the dividend, but there is a lot of movement. Will it be in time? The clock is ticking. I think if one huge market goes for it (US, China or EU), others will be forced to follow to avoid the import adjustments. When it starts to happen, it will cascade quickly.

To me, the carbon/climate problem is exactly like the debt/deficit problem. We continue to kick the can down the road and saddle future generations with the cleanup, and that's immoral. It's like registering under your kid's name and then trashing your hotel room. So though I think there are many straight up practical considerations, in the sense of making future generations pay for our flagrance, it is a moral issue.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 05:30:58 PM by ergophobe »

rcjordan

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2018, 05:28:07 PM »
My bet is that we'll set it up as a trust fund, then proceed to replace it with worthless IOUs --effectively moving the money to the general fund.  This seems to be a favorite among federal & state governments.

rcjordan

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2018, 07:30:29 PM »
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Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe says his province won’t be implementing a tax on carbon any time soon, and if the battle with Ottawa over the issue ends up in court, “so be it.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/4058364/if-this-does-end-up-in-court-so-be-it-saskatchewans-premier-not-backing-down-on-carbon-pricing/

ergophobe

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 03:30:27 AM »
My bet is that we'll set it up as a trust fund

They will try, and they will fail. That is not a recipe for success in any state in the US, not even CA. The problem is getting politicians (and, to be honest, the Sierra Club) to understand this.

Too many people dilly dally holding out for ideal solutions while Rome burns.... literally (except last week, when my 88-year-old dad went to Rome with his granddaughter and it *snowed*).

The standard for action should not be perfect, or even good, but *better*. Of course, we've discussed that a lot with respect to automation... and most people absolutely hate that idea

buckworks

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Re: Britain’s energy fate is no longer in its own hands.
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 05:26:34 AM »
>> *better*

I agree.

Perfection is seldom possible. Improvement usually is.