Author Topic: The future of fake news  (Read 2793 times)

ergophobe

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The future of fake news
« on: July 30, 2017, 03:43:52 AM »
is video that is altered, in real time, to lip sync to any words.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/26/fake-news-obama-video-trump-face2face-doctored-content

This is going to be bad

littleman

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 05:32:16 AM »
Truly amazing.  I think the danger of this technology is probably mitigated by our knowledge that it exists.  Though it is close it doesn't quite look 100% at this point, but I have no doubt that it will soon.


Side note, there was a scifi movie about this technology being used in movies in place of the real actors in the 1980s -- the plot was that they kill the actors and use the program in their place to save money.

Brad

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 12:01:13 PM »
>mitigated

Yes to some degree, but the problem is some people will believe it no matter what in that it confirms their preconceived beliefs.  This is not part of a rational thought process.

rcjordan

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 01:14:19 PM »
>going to be bad

Think about the effect on 2nd- & 3rd-world citizenry where they're far less informed/educated --India, Pakistan, N. Korea, Yemen.

ergophobe

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 04:14:12 PM »
Wow, you guys are a lot more optimistic than me.

Back when I was still on Facebook, it drove me insane how many people would post stories without taking one second to verify. They all know fake news is happening, but if a story meets their preconceptions about Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump, they don't say "That sounds too good/bad to be true." They just post.

mitigated by our knowledge that it exists.

So LM, when you say "our knowledge," I'll assume you mean you, Brad and RC... not "people" or "Americans"

2nd- & 3rd-world citizenry where they're far less informed/educated

In my experience, the elderly are 3rd world citizens in this respect. Judging from my parents' and in-laws' inboxes, their friends are constantly sending groundless dire warnings around through email. Most of us here can recognize the fake email:

"researchers at [famous institution or corporation] have determined that [benign everyday practice] is linked to [grave illness]"

But 25 years later, they still work.

There's another phenomenon at work too - the illusory truth effect. Simply put, it is the fact that the more often you hear something, the more likely you are to believe it to be true. This is true even when you have prior knowledge that the claim is false.

 - http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth
 - http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/01/if-you-repeat-a-lie-enough-people-think-its-true-5536488/
 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
 - https://www.wired.com/2017/02/dont-believe-lies-just-people-repeat/

Another problem is that "true" and "false" apply to statements, not things. In other words, if I say "People on welfare are perfectly capable of holding down jobs, they just don't want to," you can gather evidence, run studies and verify or falsify that claim (and most likely have some level of conflicting evidence to argue both sides, but there are grounds for debate).

On the other hand, when I repeatedly show you an image of a African-American woman on welfare sitting on her porch in the middle of the day, I implicitly make the argument that welfare recipients are mostly African-Americans who sit around doing nothing all day.  I use this particular example because that is the imagery that Reagan used to effect a shift in the way people perceived welfare by creating the icon of the "welfare queen." 

Point being that imagery is much harder to argue with than textual statements. In other words, you can have an image that is "true" (that really is a welfare abuser sitting on the porch all day while decent jobs and adequate day care for her kids exist). And even though the implied generalization isn't true (welfare recipients are mostly black and lazy), the imagery evokes that association in a way that is unstated and therefore not directly debatable. The person promoting the image can always just say "I never said that" which he didn't. He implied it. He can even say "You're being racist for generalizing from one picture" and turn it around on you.

So those two factors
 - illusory truth
 - the implied associations in imagery

Are why I say this is going to be bad. It's going to be bad in the third world, the second world and the first world.

It's even going to be bad for those of us in this group, relatively savvy though we may be, because it will be hard to "unsee" the videos and in our minds, we will have that imagery and that person saying those things. When the text of the video corresponds with our prejudices, it will create associations for us in our minds that will be hard to undo.

I would like to believe that I'm too smart and sophisticated to fall for it, but 40 years of psychology research (since the 1977 experiments) and 80 years of "scientific" propaganda (since Goebbels) suggests I'm not.

rcjordan

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 04:40:43 PM »
>why I say this is going to be bad

It's sunday and I wanted to be gentle with LM, hhh. Otherwise, I'd have up'd it to horrific --maybe even WWIII-causing horrific.

littleman

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 12:51:12 AM »
To stretch the topic a bit I do believe that there are people who think it is in their own self-interest to nudge humanity into a type of post-modern feudalism and that's a big part of the insanity that we've been seeing recently.  I am not entirely optimistic about our future.  I am not entirely pessimistic either -- our own imperfections protect us in a way, all humans are fallible.

>So LM, when you say "our knowledge," I'll assume you mean you, Brad and RC... not "people" or "Americans"

No, I mean people, we are not that exceptional.  Within a few year this technology will be well known, hell we are already seeing similar tech in the Star Wars movies where they are rejuvenating actors or bringing them back from the dead to act again. 

State media already has all the tools they need to manipulate its people, I don't think this will change much.  IMO the real danger is lack of free press and dumbed down population.


>gentle with LM

No need, I always think you are >50% nihilist.

rcjordan

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 01:06:58 AM »
>we are not that exceptional

I'm going to take issue with this --not because I'm a megalomaniac-- but just based on many experiences of trying to talk to people on the 'outside' --these are people I consider to be sharp, too.  In their daily lives they just aren't able to keep up with tech advances. I mention something simple and well-publicized (echo intercom was the latest) and they rarely have even an inkling of what's going on (and they already own Alexa devices).  Their awareness stops somewhere after the BIG headlines, like self-driving cars.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 01:10:12 AM by rcjordan »

ergophobe

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 01:19:45 AM »
not because I'm a megalomaniac

Right... it's what you pay attention to. This group isn't smarter or more sophisticated. I have friends who are scientists, statisticians, researchers. They are smart people, but they aren't really interested in the things we are, so they don't see them until they are much more obvious. I still know *smart* people who don't know their browser from their operating system.

But at the end of the day, yes, we are all wired similarly and, for the reasons I mentioned (we all have human brains), we are not prepared to see something and disbelieve it, or rather "unsee" it based on evidence. Very dangerous stuff.

The most recent Malcolm Gladwell podcast, The Foot Soldier of Birmingham, is a great example. He covers the evidence behind a statue of a famous moment in the civil rights movement. The statue and the photo it is (loosely) based on do not depict the event everyone thinks they do, but it is difficult to argue with a statue. People have known for thousands of years that a statue can bend reality, and yet that statue remains powerful and reinforces a myth. If you listen to that episode of the story behind the statue, that will explain better than I can here why I find this so worrisome

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/14-the-foot-soldier-of-birmingham

Mackin USA

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 11:30:02 AM »
just saying
Mr. Mackin

ukgimp

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2017, 12:38:22 PM »
I can't see the lion one working out that well.

Brad

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2017, 01:24:11 PM »
This will play well to the conspiracy theorists.

Pre Internet Conspiracies:
FDR knew about Pearl Harbor beforehand
Hitler was still alive and hiding in S. America
JFK was still alive
Carborator that gets 100 MPG suppressed by Big Oil
Black Helicopters

Post Internet Conspiracies: Primarily by email
9/11 was done by the CIA
Obama birth certificate
Obama Muslim
Etc.

This new technology will play right into the hands of this crowd plus widen it out to those who were on the fence.  And yes, people in the 3rd World and our own elderly will be vulnerable.  This combined with social media and instant news is the real Tower of Babel. Nobody will be able to talk to anybody else.

littleman

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2017, 06:23:06 PM »
>I can't see the lion one working out that well.

Ha!

BoL

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2017, 11:40:14 PM »
make one of matt cutts telling people the 10 commandments of how not to promote a site, should make things a lot easier for yourselves...

the video was pretty convincing. authenticity is a rarer beast.

rcjordan

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Re: The future of fake news
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2017, 12:36:06 AM »
A new study examines the effectiveness of debunking on Facebook through a quantitative analysis of 54 million users over a time span of five years.....

Debunking in a world of tribes

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0181821

TL;DR:  "dissenting information online is ignored."