Author Topic: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing  (Read 496 times)

rcjordan

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Mackin USA

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 11:07:33 AM »
How every SAD
Mr. Mackin

littleman

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 09:55:57 PM »
This seems to be inline with what I'm seeing and what we've expressed here.  I'm betting that the trend towards nationalism is out of step with a lot of young people's views -- pushing them away from patriotism.

ergophobe

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 11:44:13 PM »
Patriotism is increasingly associated with nationalism, so part of it is that people are less "patriotic" and part of it is that what we mean when we talk of patriotism has changed. These days it feels more like a partisan cudgel, with people dividing into patriots (us) and traitors (them). Allegations of treason and being a traitor are thrown around freely now for partisan gain, but the throwers, who paint themselves as patriots, do not realize the corrosive effect that has on actual patriotism.

That said, I knew patriotism was dead when, during the Iraq War, the commander in chief told people the most patriotic thing they could do was go out and shop as if there were no war.

Not on this survey, but far more troubling, is the decreasing support for democracy among the young. In part, it's because democracy is failing them. In part, it's like the measles vaccine - they think they would be fine without it, until they find out what the alternative looks like.

The increase in civic involvement is a positive thing.

But whenever people lament the "decline" of values, I have a simple comment: different drinking fountains depending your heritage (not actually even the color of your skin, because of the "one drop" rule).

I have little nostalgia for the values of the past taken as a whole.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 11:47:08 PM by ergophobe »

Mackin USA

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Mr. Mackin

littleman

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2019, 04:35:14 PM »
I'm not sure we should put that show up as a representative of traditional values.  In real life the dad was gay and the mom was sleeping with the son.

ergophobe

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 06:40:24 PM »
I thought that was Mike's point - the Brady Bunch/Leave It To Beaver television world was never real. In response to my comment about nostalgia.

I do think that as we change, we leave both good and bad behind and create both good and bad as we move through time. Most cultures are dominated by a narrative of either progress or decline. So in the Middle Ages, it was a given that everything was inferior to the ancients. In the Englightenment and into the 1800s, it was a given that everything was better. World War I was a watershed event that made not just philosophers, but everyday people question the idea of progress.

Our image of the past is often terribly distorted.
https://www.hist.cam.ac.uk/prospective-undergrads/virtual-classroom/secondary-source-exercises/sources-people/laslett

RE the decline in religiosity mentioned in the survey... conservative writer David Brooks in his new book says that until the latter part of the 20th century, most conservatives were also Christians and that put a bit if a brake on how rapacious capitalism could become, but that as conservatives and neo-liberals become divorced from any non-material values (even sometimes going wholesale into "prosperity gospel" theology), capitalism is careening out of control and this is why we see the huge growth in inequality.

I'm skeptical of any single-cause argument for anything so broad as what we're seeing, but there is a loss there, along with involvement in all manner of social organizations (see: Bowling Alone) only partly compensated by the uptick in emphasis on community involvement.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 06:55:07 PM by ergophobe »

littleman

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 07:22:12 PM »
>I thought that was Mike's point

Could be.  I've known people who really hold up those shows as examples to live by.

>Prosperity Gospel

It is very convenient, but ignores a lot of history.

I think you bring up a good point about unbridled capitalism.   Religion and perhaps even patriotism seemed to act as breaks when it came to policies.   With religion falling as a core belief and multi-national corporations dominating economics people are looking in other places for values to govern society.  The kids aren't using the term "secular humanism", but that's basically what they are advocating.

rcjordan

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2019, 07:53:16 PM »
> unbridled capitalism

IMO, the largest number of 'unrestrained' (abusive, predatory) companies transform after the founder(s) sell out or die.   They lose the values the founders held.

ergophobe

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2019, 12:17:20 AM »
They lose the values the founders held.

Are you talking about Microsoft or Apple ;-)

rcjordan

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2019, 12:30:43 AM »
Yes.

Brad

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2019, 10:04:22 AM »
>values

>founders

I think this is true.  The CEO's that replace them are mostly hired guns, mercenaries who move from one company to another managing companies for the next quarterly report rather than having any real vision.

rcjordan

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2019, 03:13:35 PM »
I see it happen most often in quality tool or appliance or equipment brands, but that's just because I'm familiar with those.  John Deere lawnmowers would be a good example of plundering the brand's quality image for sales.

Brad

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Re: Values Seen as Important to Americans Are Changing
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2019, 06:17:41 PM »
Plus you have the Wal Mart downward spiral: once Wal Mart agrees to stock your product and you get hooked on the increasing sales, then Wal Mart squeezes you to cut the price.  Pretty soon you have to cut the quality too and it keeps repeating every year until you have junk.

https://www.fastcompany.com/54763/man-who-said-no-wal-mart

I think the change in values is reflected in things like the demise of big box retail, of mall retail.  I think carcentric suburbia has reached it's zenith as younger generations favor more urban settings.  But this transition period makes it hard to do any kind of urban planning because nobody is sure what will replace the things that we reject.