I've been doing deep, deep research for the nursing home on large-scale surface decontamination -probably using hydrogen peroxide-based disinfectants. (I'm looking for effective, generic, cheap, and readily available). I was tipped off to this tech from a few articles & slideshows in my feeds showing cities disinfecting mass transit. What I mostly found was a couple of companies hawking their proprietary, *patented* h202 solutions. This smelled of the old Gillette razor blade marketing and Debbie said it wasn't going to be cheap.
To cut to the end of a long chase, here's what I've found. EXTRA points because I also found EPA documentation and registration numbers (not all listed in this thread).
Electrostatic Spraying - Multi-Clean
https://multi-clean.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ElectrostaticSprayingWhitePaper3-1-18.pdf
The product they appear to be using is
Multi-Clean 256 Century Q Disinfectant Cleaner (EPA registration No.
47371-129-5449) has demonstrated effectiveness against viruses similar
to the 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) on hard, non-porous surfaces.
Therefore, Multi-Clean 256 Century Q Disinfectant Cleaner can be used
against the 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) when used in accordance
with direction for use against Adenovirus type 7 on Hard, Non-porous
surfaces.
https://cougarchemical.com/products/multi-clean-256-century-q-disinfectant
THIS SITE sells a concentrate
One case of #256 Century Q will make 544 gallons of disinfecting
cleaning solution.
($132 for 4 x 2L bottles = 544 gallons)
https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/janitorial-maintenance/cleaning-supplies/bathroom-cleaners/256-century-q-hospital-grade-neutral-disinsectant-cleaner-floral-2l-bottle-4-cs-908912
The gun shown is here, but there are several other brands of electrostatic foggers out there (but currently all sold out)
Professional Cordless Electrostatic Handheld Sprayer | Victory Innovations
https://victorycomplete.com/product/professional-cordless-electrostatic-sprayer/
found more...
Electrostatic spray technology has been around and used in paint spraying for over a decade. The hard part is to find an effective, generic, cheap, and readily available disinfectant, which now looks do-able. THEN I'll worry about how to apply it.
General write-up;
Electrostatic Cleaning Services – Commercial Janitorial Products
https://powercleanandsupplies.com/services/electrostatic-cleaning-services/
Two products that kill coronavirus
Husky 892 Arena Plus Disinfectant – 6/32 oz. Squeeze & Pour Bottles per Case – Commercial Janitorial Products
https://powercleanandsupplies.com/product/husky-892-arena-plus-disinfectant-6-32-oz-squeeze-pour-bottles-per-case/
Husky 820 Hospital Disinfectant Concentrate – 4/1 Gallons per Case – Commercial Janitorial
https://powercleanandsupplies.com/product/husky-820-hospital-disinfectant-concentrate-4-1-gallons-per-case/
Amazon used to have the Victory electrostatic gun. The reviews are not great.
Amazon.com: Victory Innovations - VP200ESK Cordless Electrostatic Handheld Sprayer for Disinfectants, Pesticides, Sanitizers, Degreasers (33.8 Oz Tank): Health & Personal Care
https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Innovations-Electrostatic-Disinfectants-Pesticides/dp/B0754SXWTS
I just made a disinfectant order from APR Bio-Tech (thank you Littleman) and noticed that one of theirs specifically says that it works in electro-static foggers.
That got me looking at the machines. Very hard to find and often pretty pricey.
And yes, the Victory guns on Amazon look like toys. They remind me of the cheapo Wagner paint guns, which mostly are garbage compared to a pro-level Graco.
Also, have you learned how long these electrostatic fogs linger? I don't want to be breathing CV19, but I also don't particularly want to be breathing hospital-grade disinfectant aerosol either. I think I would take my chances with CV19 before I did that frequently.
I really like the idea of the UV disinfecting robots, but $80,000 is a bit pricey for the home user (price as per this article):
https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/medical-robots/autonomous-robots-are-helping-kill-coronavirus-in-hospitals
>APR Bio-Tech
Thanks, I'll dig it up.
>have you learned how long these electrostatic fogs linger? I don't want to be breathing CV19, but I also don't particularly want to be breathing hospital-grade disinfectant aerosol either.
No. And this is what I don't like about water-based disinfectants. This is the BIG advantage of ozone generators, IMO. If you're doing this for your rentals, I'd definitely go O3 for coverage and penetration. And it is cheap. And it deodorizes, to boot. They're supposedly legal in Calif for hotels.
<+>
>remind me of the cheapo Wagner paint guns
I'm thinking that the nursing home should forego the 'electrostatic' and go with a Ryobi portable fogger. These received solid reviews and sold for $100 at Home Depot. Now sold out everywhere, the scalpers have them selling for $400-up, but they'll come back down eventually. The negative is that they're going to use more disinfectant.
Quote from: rcjordan on April 25, 2020, 10:30:12 PM
>APR Bio-Tech
Thanks, I'll dig it up.
This page, slide 4, mentions electro static
https://aprbiotech.com/surfaces/
The bulk surface disinfectant is out of stock, but we got some of the bulk hand sanitizer and wipes, safe for basically all surfaces. So the aloe vera will keep the granite countertops smooth and supple
>scalpers
I picked up a supposedly new Ryobi fogger on fleabay for $300 delivered. Maybe I won't get a box of bricks.
Quote from: rcjordan on April 25, 2020, 10:30:12 PM
This is the BIG advantage of ozone generators, IMO. If you're doing this for your rentals, I'd definitely go O3 for coverage and penetration. And it is cheap. And it deodorizes, to boot. They're supposedly legal in Calif for hotels.
But Amazon will not ship it to me in California. Illegal since 2007, apparently.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2007/10/california-regulates-ozone-generator-air-purifiers/index.htm
So ship it to an out-of-state friend as a gift and pick it up whenever.
>illegal
But waived for hotels, so I'm told. You should check that. Hotels = accommodations = cabins would be my logic.
The nanny state has good reason to keep it out of consumers' hands. I've told Louise that I wouldn't recommend it to --ummm-- inattentive friends & relatives. They'll fry their lungs. But for those that are capable, it is too good and too easy at what it does to pass up.
Or
QuoteSo ship it to an out-of-state friend as a gift
and get them to forward it to you.
Done that with US good that they don't ship to the UK.
Quote from: rcjordan on April 26, 2020, 12:48:33 PM
But for those that are capable
You are making questionable assumptions about me, not always borne out by evidence.
My nephew said they are getting eMist electrostatic foggers at work - they are $1495 each!
https://foreverozone.com/we-sell-ozone-generators-to-california/
Short version: ozone generators are approved in CA for "shock" treatment at high concentrations, but not for use as air purifiers in occupied rooms at low concentrations. I guess the problem was that a lot of people were selling ozone generators as a healthy way to keep your room air clean.
Since Amazon doesn't want complications, they just ban shipping them to California, but other places do not, since it is fully legal when used as designed.
This one is good for up to 1000 square feet at 50% humidity.
But on the other hand
Why aren't ozone generators, UV lights or air purifiers on List N? Can I use them to kill the COVID-19?
"EPA only recommends use of the surface disinfectants identified on List N against SARS-CoV-2."
https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/why-arent-ozone-generators-uv-lights-or-air-purifiers-list-n-can-i-use-them-kill-covid
So, if your goal is to meet the AirBNB requirement of using a listed disinfectant, neither the disinfectants based on benzalkonium chloride (as posted elsewhere) or ozone will meet that requirement.
>Ryobi fogger on fleabay
Arrived ok, new in box.
I gave it a test run, it's more of a "fine spitter" than a fogger. It has potential, but only in places that can withstand a wet film of liquid, such as a warehouse, receiving dock, or inside a delivery truck body.
It'll definitely work for outdoor pest & weed control.
Where did you get to with these foggers? I have been recommended to use one for the holiday let, and of course no one know about o3, so they are playing dumb.
The issue is the turn round time.... 2 hour O3 running the 2 hours with the windows open. They only have 5 hours for the complete turn round. (that can be changed of course)
Remember that foggers have a lot more aerosolization than electrostatic sprayers. The spray is not ionized, so it isn't attracted to grounded surfaces and therefore stays in the air a lot longer, while at the same time covering less effectively, because it's not drawn back to the back side of the object in the same way.
I think they also require more extensive protective gear because they do aerosolize the product, rather than creating a spray.
Electrostatic sprayers are either super expensive or very hard to find. The Protexus (which is just like the Victory, but white) is featured in all the Marriott ads. I think Marriott has cornered the market. They are safer and more effective though.
In anycase, I think it's way more important to open the windows and turn on a fan than to spray down the house. It's the aerosols, not the surfaces, that matter and you want to get those evacuated or settled and dried, ideally before the cleaner enters. Listen to this interview with Michael Osterholm, founder and director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/879255417/amid-confusion-about-reopening-an-expert-explains-how-to-assess-covid-risk
In our area, cleaners are prohibited from entering a hotel room or other lodging for 24 hours after people check out. Then all linens, dishes, pots and pans, utensils, et cetera must be washed, whether they have been used or not. Not possible in five hours unless you have access to a linen service.
OK thanks. I had not read that about surfaces, and seems to go against the hand washing advice.
Seems opening the widows and getting a bit of welsh wind through the house is the answer for me, after running the O3 gen for an hour.
>Where did you get to with these foggers?
Nothing further, as I didn't like the Ryobi --it simply isn't atomizing enough. All the electrostatic models seemed to be based on the Victory unit, but prices are around $900. They are sold out, even if I was going to pay that much.
One of the Holiday cottage companies we work with said a fogger is recommended by the Govt. Not sure its great advice.
Quote from: rcjordan on June 23, 2020, 06:58:53 PM
based on the Victory unit, but prices are around $900. They are sold out, even if I was going to pay that much.
I see list prices more like $600 ($599), but as you say, they are sold out.
>> surfaces, and seems to go against the hand washing advice.
I don't think the one implies the other. It's all a probability game and there are many things that can infect you from your hands aside from SARS-COV-2.
Most of the infectious disease specialists I have been reading all through the pandemic have been saying roughly what I said above regarding surfaces. It is a theoretical, but difficult, pathway and the main source of infection is breathing exhaled droplets or aerosols from an infected person over an extended period of time (that is, it's almost impossible to get from an infected runner who passes you on a trail, but riding around in the car with an infected passenger and the windows up would not be a good idea).
If you have the mind space to pay attention to everything, then yes, watch those surfaces. But if obsessing on surfaces is decreasing even a bit the mental space you have and therefore your vigilance with respect to aerosols, that's a bad trade in my opinion and that was more Osterholm's point, rather than saying not to wash your hands.
Rather, Osterholm says you should absolutely wash your hands and that personally he does frequently, but he does so mostly because of all the diseases that have always used that pathway effectively. I suspect given his work, back in 2019 he was washing his hands a lot more than average, and he has not really changed practice. But he said specifically, he's not concerned with touching doorknobs, opening mail, bringing groceries into his house. Keep your eye on the airborne pathways.
The Osterholm interview is quite good. I strongly recommend giving it a listen.
That said...
QuoteNone of this is to say you should be cavalier when you venture into the outside world. Washing your hands, avoiding touching your face, being diligent about physical distancing, wearing masks in public, and disinfecting communal surfaces — all these things likely reduce transmission risk, and we should keep doing them, Rasmussen said.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/4/24/21233226/coronavirus-runners-cyclists-airborne-infectious-dose
If you can do only ONE thing, get rid of the aerosols and let everything dry out so the virus casings denature and the virus gets rendered inactive as much as possible. The focus on aerosols and droplets came up over and over and over with the county public health officials.
If you can do seven things, then, sure, disinfect every surface and wear a hazmat suit. I wore a full P100 cartridge mask to go strip the beds because I own two that are right at hand. Stripping beds is going to kick stuff into the air, so why not be safe if it doesn't take much more effort?
Obviously, the level of care you take has a lot to do with your risk tolerance and your objective risk factors. If I were 86 years old with some respiratory issues (my father-in-law), I would be much more careful.
Quoteget rid of the aerosols and let everything dry out so the virus casings denature and the virus gets rendered inactive as much as possible.
The more I read, the more I think its very fresh in the aerosols. And it does get less active quite quickly. Not inactive, but less so.
good summary, thanks.
(added: just "
listened" instead of "
read")
I think of it as a sliding scale of probabilities. By way of analogy, though in no way implying actual mathematical equivalence since I do not the actual numbers
Level 1
- hanging out indoors in a large group of strangers with the windows shut and everyone singing in a town where the hospitals are overwhelmed and out of ventilators
- driving drunk at night on a curvy mountain road
Level 2
- Physical distancing, washing your hands regularly, wearing a mask when you get groceries
- Driving the speed limit and obeying all laws, well-rested
Level 3
- Effectively in quarantine, disinfecting everything that comes into the house, not touching anything from outside for 72 hours, disinfecting every surface that might have been touched by someone else.
- driving only during the day, 10-15mph below the speed limit, in the safest car on the market with all the driver-assist and a co-pilot passenger to help you watch the road.
For someone who is high risk for Covid or for my elderly in-laws with very bad night vision, Level 3 is perhaps the right level.
But most people accept various forms of risk. As a result of abolishing the 55mph speed limit in the US, we accept an additional 5,000 deaths per year on the roads. People have decided that being able to get somewhere a few minutes faster is worth 5,000 deaths per year. Nobody I know regularly drives well below the current speed limits, because they think the reward/risk is not high enough. But everyone I know has a slightly different tolerance for risk while driving.
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/higher-speed-limits-led-to-36760-more-deaths-study-shows/
I see Covid like that. Some people throw down three beers and speed home. Most people only drive sober, but typically got a few miles per hour over the speed limit in the US.*
*I was surprised 20 years ago when I spent two months in Australia and drove 15,000km and found that, especially in Queensland, people regularly drove below the speed limit and rarely over. But that's because the OZ speeding enforcement is fairly raitional and in the US it is completely arbitrary and ridiculous.
Ryobi is a little late to the party, but the price -$400- is waaaaay better than the other units I've seen. These use Ryobi's standard 18v battery.
Ryobi Part # PSP02K2 - Ryobi One+ 18-Volt Cordless Handheld Electrostatic Sprayer Kit With (2) 2.0 Ah Batteries And Charger - Home Depot Pro
https://www.wilmar.com/Sku/314472944/ryobi-one-18-volt-cordless-handheld-electrostatic-sprayer-kit-with-2-20-ah-batteries-and-charger-033287195077-psp02k2