Much as I love to belittle Apple, credit where credit's due; a 2880x1800 display on a maxed out 15" 2kg notebook is pretty damn cool. Hopefully this'll kick the PC industry into offering higher resolution displays on notebooks and desktop monitors over the coming year.
That is pretty amazing considering I am running 1920 x 1080 on a 27 inch monitor. Could you see anything without a magnifying-glass at that setting?
That sounds sexy but surely it would become a hindrance on 15"
I can't comprehend how tiny the icons would be... or is that me just getting older and moaning about nothing
Quote from: littleman on June 11, 2012, 08:27:29 PM
That is pretty amazing considering I am running 1920 x 1080 on a 27 inch monitor. Could you see anything without a magnifying-glass at that setting?
Away from the point of the thread maybe, but do you think eyes could quickly evolve to make use of it? It is not too long ago I remember holding back on 800x600 because it was 'too tiny' for users.
Apparently for things like text and icons, it's just doubled up, so you get the same screen real estate as a 1440x900 display. I guess that the gain is in imagery and antialiasing. Everything should look smoother and sharper.
I still get use out of a 7 year old Dell Inspiron 9300, as it has a lovely 1920x1200 display. It cost a fortune new, but now even the lowliest netbook leaves it in the dust. Apart from the screen. There really isn't a lot of choice if you want a current notebook with a screen resolution higher than 1920x1080. It's the same with desktop monitors unless you can afford to go really large. Samsung 2343 23"ers do 2048x1152, which we use in the office, but they're the exception. I've got a couple of 10 year old 19" Iiyama CRTs that'll do (an admittedly blurry) 1920x1440. Things just don't seem to have progressed much.
Sounds like an excellent piece of kit. Windows inside a vm should be a breeze with it. Humm quite tempted but will wait to see if there are any issues with the 1st batch.
iOS 6 though. Seems like a let down but installing on my iPad later today so will see how revolutionary it is.
Shit almighty...they've doubled the price!
I don't mean to sound a downer, but 15" has always sounded pretty crap a laptop.
Make it as high resolution sa you want - on that small a screen will you really notice any difference worth paying the extra price for?
For my 15" is the perfect laptop size. I spent some time using a 13" MB which has the same resolution as some 19" monitors so there was plent of screen space. a 15" with double the resolution of my old 13", plus crazy fast and 7 hours battery.. I can't think of anything else more I'd want. Oh and my Dad works at the local uni so I can get £300ish off the normal price and free 3 years Apple Care (or its only £50 I can't remember). For speed, reliablitilty, price and support, I am sold :D
Quote from: I, Brian on June 13, 2012, 12:03:00 AM
I don't mean to sound a downer, but 15" has always sounded pretty crap a laptop.
Make it as high resolution sa you want - on that small a screen will you really notice any difference worth paying the extra price for?
I don't mean to be supportive of Apple (honestly, I really don't), but I've moved back towards smaller screens on laptops. I'm currently running a 14" thinkpad which I love. OK I dock it in the office and have a couple of big screens there, but on the move and at home I prefer the smaller screen.
Horses for courses.
Quote from: Rooftop on June 13, 2012, 09:11:04 AM
I don't mean to be supportive of Apple (honestly, I really don't), but I've moved back towards smaller screens on laptops. I'm currently running a 14" thinkpad which I love. OK I dock it in the office and have a couple of big screens there, but on the move and at home I prefer the smaller screen.
Horses for courses.
I agree. The big apple have primarily designed this laptop for on the go people that need performance and practicality. Take a look at the demo video. Stunning.
P.S. I'm not a representative for apple, just love their products. ;)
Quoteon the go people that need performance and practicality
really?
I would need to rephrase that before it made sense to me ....
Quoteon the go 'apple users' that need performance and practicality
.. for example.
'Performance and Practicality' without qualification doesn't cross the platform barrier intact.
If applied to the whole 'computing world' instead of their captive market, one might argue that 'Performance and Style' was their intention - but 'practicality'? ... nah, not in the real world.
P.S. I'm not a representative for everyone in the whole world except apple, just love their practicality ;)
Quote from: 4Eyes on June 14, 2012, 12:38:20 PM
If applied to the whole 'computing world' instead of their captive market, one might argue that 'Performance and Style' was their intention - but 'practicality'? ... nah, not in the real world.
7 hours battery life and 2kg while only 15inches. How is that not practical? Is there a comparible non Apple product which can do that?
>on the go 'apple users' that need performance and practicality
So your saying that every non-'apple user' does not need or lust for performance and practicality? Wow.
>If applied to the whole 'computing world' instead of their captive market, one might argue that 'Performance and Style' was their intention - but 'practicality'? ... nah, not in the real world.
Hmm...i guess it boils down to what YOUR "real world" is. To a photographer that is constantly out in the field and moving = a god send. To an average pencil pusher (of which Apple know will not be interested in their products) = pointless.
Personally, i do not need these extra benefits in my "real world". However...just to have that extra resoloution to gaze at lustfully. Priceless. For everything else theres Mastercard.
Many many Mac users are graphic creators/ video makers etc. So a monitor with extreme detail would be something that is very practical as they'd use it all the time and would really need the detail.
I always get the smallest macbook, as I don't like to schlepp a heavy notebook around.
9thwotw, *definitely* not an Apple astroturfer, right? My CRT iMac has neither performance nor practicality, but darn it's so purty!
Quote from: grnidone on June 14, 2012, 05:35:07 PM
Many many Mac users are graphic creators/ video makers etc. So a monitor with extreme detail would be something that is very practical as they'd use it all the time and would really need the detail.
I'm not sure that has been the case for a decade or so. It is certainly the brand image that they like to maintain, but that is a very very small share of their now massive market.
QuoteSo your saying that every non-'apple user' does not need or lust for performance and practicality? Wow.
No, please engage brain and read what I posted again - then point us all to where I said, or even implied, this.
'Practicality' (in the 'real world', or 'any' world IMO) was not Apple's 'main' target with this computer.
It is a performance machine perhaps, and it is certainly in line with Apple user ideas of 'stylish'.
It is also undeniably expensive.
These guys seem to think that 'practicality' isn't really its forte:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa/
.. rightly, or wrongly, described as 'Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable'
It is a performance laptop aimed at a niche market.
My point remains, 'performance', 'style' and even 'usability' are words that could be used in conjunction with this laptop.
'Practical' and 'Practicality' not.. the price and features, (and possibly the repair-ability issue, if the article linked to is to be believed), are way beyond 'practicality'.
@grnidone:
QuoteMany many Mac users are graphic creators/ video makers etc. So a monitor with extreme detail would be something that is very practical as they'd use it all the time and would really need the detail.
... niche users - where this still applies, they are clearly not 'average joe', 'real world' users. It supports my original statement though - practical only when applied to a niche 'apple' user base, not universally.
The wired post is just opinion by a guy who is worried about his business or job.
2kg leaves me with 12kg of carry on allowance on flights that's more than my current plastic MacBook leaves me with.
7h battery life is 4.5h more than my current MacBook. I can probably go away for a weekend and not bring a charger.
What's more important, a changeable battery which will only last 6-9 months like many of dells and hps offerings, or a non-changeable battery which will likely last 2+ years?
Who actually upgrades ram? Just buy the one with 16gb and it will be fine for a few years.
For extra storage use externals. There should always be backups of ssd drives anyway.
AppleCare is fantastic. I'd rather leave the machine I run my business froms maintenance or repairs to the experts and indulge my desires to take things apart to my bikes, car or desk top pc.
@hungrygoose
QuoteThe wired post is just opinion by a guy who is worried about his business or job.
nah it isn't - it may be 'opinion by a guy who is worried about his business or job' but it is not 'JUST' 'opinion etc' unless you are able to discount his argument.
Quote2kg leaves me with 12kg of carry on allowance on flights that's more than my current plastic MacBook leaves me with.
7h battery life is 4.5h more than my current MacBook. I can probably go away for a weekend and not bring a charger.
Well done then - as a Mac user, you find it practical.
That was exactly my case.
There are far cheaper laptops that offer the same or better battery life, and that weigh less too.
A typical buyer will have already discounted these as their preferences for style and performance mean that they prefer the Apple brand.
If you look outside the 'Apple' field, you can easily find more 'practicality' - but 'practicality' is never the main reason that people opt for Apple, as detailed already. There is nothing wrong in making a choice based on performance, or style - or in making a choice based on the practicality of your chosen laptop for your specific circumstances for that matter.
Apple aim for style and cachet - they aim to sell 'premium' at premium prices, and they do it well.
Practicality in the majority market is not their main aim for this laptop.
Ok fair enough :)
I have looked for computers comparible to say the 13inch pro but never find anything with the reliability, easy to get repaired, or battery life. That is where I am coming from, I can't see anything even close. When spec'ing a thinkpad up to similar levels to a mbp they always end up more expensive. There may be cheaper or longer battery life or higher performance models but IMO there isn't anything with all 3 + the style :)
What is your weapon of choice?
Quote from: hungrygoose on June 15, 2012, 11:51:48 AM
What is your weapon of choice?
This is mine
(https://th3core.com/chat/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.mit.edu%2Fmadmatt%2FPublic%2FPics%2F100laptop.jpg&hash=85c56fdbbf0805bacdc9ba9435cc85307318ceb2)
Beats any battery life on the market!!
Count me among the Apple fangirls. I carry an Air these days, and my desktop is a 24" iMac that's about three years old.
Apple's biggest attraction for me is the ease of use inherent in their software.
Time saved and stress reduced are not things that hardware junkies know how to measure, though.
Its well known method of preventing homosexual tendencies too?
Sugar Daddies don't normally work that way..
Quoteeasy to get repaired
debatable - 'easy' if sending back to Apple is the chosen option, which is perhaps not as 'cheap and easy' as many other laptops.
Quoteor battery life.
That isn't an issue - there have been other laptops with 7 to 8 hour battery life at least since 2011. There are laptops with 25 hour battery life (slice batteries).
There was a Toshiba at looked at last year (forgot the model, easily found though) that had 8 hours battery and weighed just over 1Kg - was pretty cheap as I recall. Would be lower performance, obviously, but then that isn't the issue here.
The difficulty is always to get the balance of performance, screen size, weight, battery life and cost in the right combination for the target market.
When performance is set at the high end, the target market isn't usually the 'practicality' market.
Quote.. but IMO there isn't anything with all 3 + the style
Exactly my point - discount the perception (and, IMO, entirely subjective issue) of style, and there is plenty of choice. Ditto the other features. Depending on how you define you parameters, it is always going to be possible to isolate this as the only relevant choice.
QuoteWhat is your weapon of choice?
I probably don't fight in the same space as you.
I hardly ever need to travel, and when I do I have a tablet with keyboard that gives me a good days battery life for most things I need to do.
I found that there was never any time when I needed to rely on battery power to do serious work, so I went for a relatively high spec laptop that performs at close to desktop levels.
I have linux as the main OS, it boots in less than 11 seconds (and could be optimised for less, if I turned off a few bits of linux that I don't really need).
I have never had the need to see when the battery goes flat.
It looks like sh*t, but it works great and its looks don't earn me any money anyway :)
It is far more than most people would need for 'practicality' - but it is practical for my specific niche requirements.
I think that long battery life 'full spec' laptops are not as much an issue as they were, the tablet revolution has changed that, at least temporarily.
@buckworks
QuoteCount me among the Apple fangirls. I carry an Air these days, and my desktop is a 24" iMac that's about three years old.
nothing wrong with that - I have an 6 year old desktop PC running Linux just fine - would be scrap as a Windows 7 box, should be in a skip, but I can't bring myself to get rid - it has no significant missing functionality.
QuoteTime saved and stress reduced are not things that hardware junkies know how to measure, though.
That's a bit of a sweeping statement.
The big difference, I think, is that 'hardware junkes' (I am not one of those) simply do not feel the same levels as stress over hardware or software issues, so it is a non-issue for them.
'Time saved' is (perhaps ironically) something I spend a lot of time on - but I see it as an overall business system. I use Linux, my wife uses Linux, but my business partners and Elves need to be using Windows - overall, that is the 'time saving' solution. There is still too much software that we need to use that will only run on Windows. I can emulate windows on Linux, as you can on a Mac as well of course, but some of the ..ermm... 'marketing' tools we use really only work well when ran natively.
For my specific needs (and, may I stress, I KNOW this is not the case for many of you), Apple falls somewhere between Linux and Windows, so not really a time saver for me or my employees.
re: Time saved over hardware...
That's exactly why I went Mac years ago. The damn things just work. Without a lot of work to make them work.
Quote from: grnidone on June 22, 2012, 03:59:00 PM
re: Time saved over hardware...
That's exactly why I went Mac years ago. The damn things just work. Without a lot of work to make them work.
What the hell were you all doing to your PCs that they never worked? Not picking on grnidone in particular (sorry - easy quote), but they "they just work" argument is such a crock. My computer just works. In fact the room I am in now contains 11 Windows machines that 'just work' and one frecky linux box which would be better described as "just does what it does". Honestly, you don't need to give them CPR or anything to get them going in the morning.
Rooftop
A few years ago my PC seemed to always have viruses, was slow, crashed a few times per day, needed reformating, would randomly have boot errors. This was just around the time Vista was released. When I switched to Mac I had zero issues. Now tho I am on a PC and have had zero issues so it seem windows has caught up there. But pc manufaturers support seems a lot less than apples from the stories I've heard.
Never had any of those problems with any computer on any OS, and I've used a few! Maybe I'm blessed ;D
Quote from: Rooftop on June 22, 2012, 05:19:00 PM
Never had any of those problems with any computer on any OS, and I've used a few! Maybe I'm blessed ;D
Or your just sensible with what you install :p
Quoteso it seem windows has caught up there
.. yup, both Mac and Windows are getting closer to Linux ;)
In truth, there is far less difference between them all than most people are prepared to accept - we dig our trenches and get comfortable in them etc.
The actual differences are far less important than the pain of having to learn to become an expert on something new.
Yes, the pain of something new :(
Ironically, I found it easier to adapt to my mac than I am to get used to this laptop with effing Office 2007. Perhaps I just expected a mac to be different and therefore didn't mind hunting around for stuff, but trying to do things in excel 2007 is neither intuitive nor is anything where it used to be in its equally non intuitive but engrained in my brain positions.
I want an XP skin!
Or beer. Perhaps it gets easier with beer.
QuoteWhat the hell were you all doing to your PCs that they never worked? Not picking on grnidone in particular (sorry - easy quote), but they "they just work" argument is such a crock.
Well, after fighting my Dad's PC last night to get it to work, I beg to differ.
I fought that damn thing for 2 hours to get it to work with the newest Adobe flash plugin because he wanted to see something on Youtube. Removed Adobe plugins, re-installed plugin. Re-downloaded then reinstalled. Etc etc. Then fought it to get it to recognize his 2 year old blackberry to get the phone numbers and pictures off of it. Read every tech support item with similar issues did what it said. Didn't work.
This has always been my experience with PC software. Fight fight fight. Uninstall. Reinstall, fight some more, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Fighting a PC *just* isn't worth my time or energy. The only reason my father doesn't have a mac laptop is because the john deere software he needs won't work on a mac (or on the emulation software because it is such a hog.) And quickbooks for a mac is a joke.
I stand by my statement. The damn things just work.
>or on the emulation software because it is such a hog
I'd look again, the software has come on leaps and bounds. There is always bootcamp too, I've always seen that run windows much better than a PC.
The emulation software isn't a hog. The John Deere software is a hog. But if you say so, I'll give it another try...
QuoteThis has always been my experience with PC software. Fight fight fight. Uninstall. Reinstall, fight some more, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
With the greatest respect Heather, that has NEVER been my experience, (and to clarify, I think we are both talking about Windows here, not PCs).
There may well be more crap software out there for Windows (I can't comment, as I don't monitor the level of crap software on Macs), but if so, that is because there is significantly more software out there for Windows.
I think the problem here is probably just badly written John Deere Software.
I am not a Windows fan, as you know, I use Linux, and in most cases run Windows in a virtual system when I need it, but even then, your experience really is just not the case for me. There is the odd program that I need to run on a normal Windows box cos it is going to thrash the system a bit, and I don't want my Linux box slowing down, but other than that everything installs and runs fine, every time. Can't remember when I last had to fight getting software to run.
In the past, one could have argued that Windows systems were inherently less secure, (less so now), but never the argument that you put forward.
NFFC is right that emulation/virtual systems have improved a lot. Having said that, performance suffers no matter how good the virtual system - you have less memory and less processor. A dual boot system might be better (I assume bootcamp is exactly that) - but then you lose copy/paste between them.
Sure, there are differences between Mac/Windows/Linux - but performance wise, they are far less than they ever were. The biggest pain in switching between one and the other is learning the default usability patterns - windows min/max buttons, software launching/installing etc.
After that, it is down to how much software is available. Windows wins that one clearly, but just as with the iPhone/Pad App situation, the competition has all the important bases covered, and anything genuinely useful ends up being available across platforms.
Quoteit is down to how much software is available
What matters is the quality of software available
to do the things I want to do. That's a different matter from "how much software".
QuoteWhat matters is the quality of software available to do the things I want to do
Yes indeed - that is why I would never have switched to a Mac when I was a windows user - the software I needed to use was either not there, or very much a second best option. It was also the main reason that both Linux and Mac users end up using emulators and virtual systems. Very few Windows users ever needed to use emulators to run Mac or Linux software.
These days, it is not so bad, there is hardly anything that is available on one that is not available on the other two.
FWIW, in more than 20 years of using a Mac I can only remember once where I was stymied because I couldn't find a Mac program with the functionality I wanted. That was years ago.
These days, there's more possibilities out there than I have time to even investigate, let alone use.
QuoteFWIW, in more than 20 years of using a Mac I can only remember once where I was stymied because I couldn't find a Mac program with the functionality I wanted. That was years ago.
Obviously it depends on what field you work in, what software you are comfortable with, and also whether you stray outside your walled garden to see what other software is available. For example, there are a few specialist SEO programs that simply have no equivalent on the Mac or Linux - if you didn't know they existed, you wouldn't miss them - but if you DO know, and see a use for them, then they can earn you good money.
I would never presume to tell a Mac owner that their choice was wrong, any more than I would tell a Windows user to switch to Linux. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses to accommodate.
Explaining why one favours a particular OS over another is fine, but as with religion and politics, the freedom to express one's views comes at the price of having one's views examined and challenged. I am comfortable with that, happy to accept that Linux isn't for everyone, happy to accept that Windows is not for everyone... and getting somewhat accustomed to the fact that Mac owners have a religious zeal that requires 'living with' ;)
to be honest, I have a personal mac and a work PC and I happily switch between the two of them with just a few issues when I find I'm trying to ctrl+c on the mac.
There is no real difference. The more you start to rely on specific software the more you do have to use one or another of course, but as 4Eyes says, that's not actually an o/s issue, its a software issue.
Working for a .net based agency I would struggle with a mac work machine, I need to use three different browsers to get one bespoke system to upload, edit and publish something from my mac. Those days I love my PC. Now I have office 2007 on the work machine I ironically prefer my mac for word and excel based work though because I hate excel in 2007.....
I think a lot is down to 'mouse muscle memory' as well.
I switched from MS Office to LibreOffice/OpenOffice when MS brought in that bloody ribbon thingy. I also had to avoid an otherwise 'really nice' Linux desktop cos the 'double click' on the title bar couldn't be configured to maximise a window.
I know that just 4 or 5 days effort would have rendered these issues irrelevant, but it would have been 4 or 5 days of cursing, so s*d that.
My current Linux system is configured to behave like Windows, so no issue switching between them. If I use Mac instead of Windows, I could configure linux to have windows controls like a Mac to get the same effect.
I just want an easy life without having to keep readjusting
QuoteI just want an easy life without having to keep readjusting
For me that was/is exactly the beauty of the Mac, especially in the earlier years.
Mac programs were so much better than anyone else about adhering to standard protocols and a consistent user interface that any new program I tried would match the "muscle memory" I already had, no matter what the software was about. The Mac protocols have saved a lot of people a lot of time.
QuoteMac owners have a religious zeal that requires 'living with'
We in turn live with the fact that trying to explain not just our practical preferences, but our
experience of beauty, will be dissed and dismissed as "religious zeal".
C'est la vie.
QuoteC'est la vie.
Well said. And I love you all no matter what OS you use. :)
Quoteexperience of beauty
LOL
.... I guess it must be the 'walled' garden of Eden :)
My team and I have just completed 2 days of training where the tutor guy was using a Mac. Twice I was made to think back to this thread:
1. I had my first ever "damn, wish you could do that on Windows" with a Mac in close to 20 yrs.
The 20 yrs is a bit of a guess, but that is about when I was more involved with Macs and they were doing some cool stuff. However the fact that Macs are now just intel mahines running linux opens up some interesting stuff. For me it was command line unix without running a virtual machine. With the stuff we were looking at that made quite a time saving.
As a result I now know exactly 1 good reason (from my position) to use a Mac over a windows machine. Those that know me will understand that is a big step ;)
2. His Macbook air crashed twice.
Switching displays is hung and crashed. Something I do on my thinkpad continually and have never had an issue with. What can I say... my ThinkPad just works ;)
In fairness he said that it had never done it before, which I believe. However it happens. It did strike me though that he was having to use non Apple stuff with it and there probably is a big "just works" advantage if you don't push the kit by sticking to everything from one manufacturer.
One of my desktops crashed once, but I don't remember my Air crashing, ever.
So believe him when he said "it had never done it before."
Many machines have a "critical need sensor" that causes them to malfunction at critical moments. If the machine can tell that you have an audience, or you're in a hurry, or the thing you're doing is Very Very Important, it will sense your critical need and start to do odd things for no reason except to amuse itself. Fax machines were the first to exhibit this behaviour, but the propensity has spread to other forms of digital organisms.
Been using Win7 exclusively for around 3 months now. There's no dodgy software, all updates are there etc etc but I've starting getting the BSD every other day or so :(
When I built my current PC I had bluescreens every few days, and Windows 7 kept having to rebuild the RAID drives (4x1TB drives in RAID 10). It turned out to be the Intel RAID drivers. When they finally upgraded them, Windows was fine. Since then, recent ATI graphics drivers have caused problems, so I'm using ones from 2011 with no issues. I'd suggest opening up the PC (assuming you're using a desktop) and reseating memory, processor and cards as the first step towards fixing bluescreens. If that doesn't make and difference, try older graphics drivers.
I can't be bothered. Trust me, I'm trying to give ms a chance, I want to see ms conquer the world as it would be the best story of the decade. I've been using bnig, I switched from a MacBook to a desktop pc, I have a Xbox. I think I might still stick to apple hardware.
I'm into week two with my Macbook Pro Retina. Love it.
Fast. Thin. Light.
Downsides:
- Can't use chrome (regularly) yet because it crashes occasionally due to a bug for Lion.
- I spilled coffee on the keyboard and the tab key is a bit touchy ATM.. should wear off.
When I power up a VM to run windows, XP thinks I have a 2880x1800 resolution and switches to it... damn that shit is small.
I hate Mac, but own some of their stuff anyway.
Welcome on board John! Good to have you around :)
I'll be damned, it is John; good to see you!
I only use macs. I only type with one finger. I've tried pcs a few times and want nothing to do with them. I buy a new Mac every couple years, have no virus software, machine never crashes, apps never crash, I don't read manuals and don't have problems. It's easy to figure out if I'm looking for something. Haven't spent an hour struggling since 96 when I got my first laptop and it had a hardware issue. After that never had an issue.
Oh, and I read this thread because I'm ready for a new laptop to replace the one that is ancient but still works:)