I've noticed that major appliances just don't have the lifespan they used to have. I see my kids buying refrigs, washing machines, heat pumps, etc. because of catastrophic failure forcing replacement every 7-8 years vs 15-20 for us when we bought ours. Anecdotally, it seems to be circuit boards failing more than routine electro-mechanical problems. And the cost of trying to service them is prohibitive with a substantial risk of failure to fix.
Back a few years ago, I saw a youtube where a guy replaced his dishwasher's control board with an arduino. As I watch arduino & rpi communities develop and progress, I think there will be an increasing effort to replace expensive, stupid control boards with inexpensive, smart computers.
Just my thought for today ...as I work on my dishwasher.
BTW, my microwave is approaching 20 and my trash compactor is 35.
I'm completely with you on major appliances, they just don't seem the last very long anymore. I am on my fourth washing machine in 16 years and my third dishwasher. It seems incredibly wasteful. There is a modular phone in the works where one could swap out various bits instead of replacing the whole unit; it would be great if appliances were built more like this, at least as far as the control unit goes.
Makes sense and would be great if that's the direction things go. I'm sure the likes of the EU would be on-board for this way of thinking.
Maybe even a standardised protocol would move things along faster.
Seems like an interesting market to tap into.
From what little I've done in GPU programming it seems like a hodge-podge of protocol but will become a more mainstream and more standardised way to compute.
Louise was sorta discounting my pronouncements on the 'state of appliances' as crap-RC-says until the old, independent appliance repairman told her point-blank to never get rid of our dryer because it was the type that he could rebuild and that the new ones were flimsy by comparison. It's gotta be 25 yrs old and clocking 2 million miles (5 kids, remember). I don't think I've spent $250 on repairs on it, total.
>hodge-podge of protocol
Yeah, and social is smoothing out some of the lumps. The diy tutorials are getting pretty decent for stuff like temp sensors, solar panels. That's the sexy stuff. Soon, they'll figure out that the humdrum crap we own is eating us alive, budget-wise.
<added>
>Maybe even a standardised protocol would move things along faster.
Didn't they do that with phone chargers?
Not sure about phone chargers, I've just recently reacquired a phone and forget to have the thing on.....
Social, IFTTT and the flowing of ideas sounds good to me. Seems like an open-sourcing of it all.
There's room for bad code, though :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq6T5BojXc8
> EU Phone chargers
They did and everyone bar Apple signed up to it, preferring instead to pay the fine every year. The standard was micro USB , which is now being phased out for USB C
> Arduino & Standardised comms
I'd love to see this happen after my boiler PCB broke down and had to be replaced. An easy job to do, but illegal for anyone bar a CORGI recognised plumber to do. When I saw what the issue was (Dry joint on one terminal) it pissed me off royally, especially as there is so little these devices need to do and an Arduino is simply a programmable chip with a simple language for coders to do lots of things well enough
Quote from: rcjordan on April 28, 2016, 04:49:59 PM
I've noticed that major appliances just don't have the lifespan they used to have.
In the past 5 years, on appliances all less than 10 years old, I have replaced
- two dishwasher circuit board
- one drying
- one fridge
The first two were easy. I had to call someone for the fridge (not that the repair was hard, but figuring out the cause was beyond me... it just wasn't getting cold enough).
The fridge repair guy confirmed that the lifespan of appliances is really short. Dishwashers, he said, were a particular problem b/c the control board is almost always right where the steam vents.
The control boards were mostly in the $130 range.
New dishwasher this month.
apparently hotpoint have to sell 7000 units per (week month , not listening) but so many to keep selling, that the dishwasher is now designed to only last 2-3 years. (on 3-4 washes a week)
The EU meanwhile reduce the amount of water you can use in them, but ignore the elephant in the room.
Anyone fancy settling up a small manu plant making simple dishwashers, that use enough water to wash the pots, and last 20 years?
http://www.neonsquirt.com/dishwasher.html
Thats a serious job. took more than several days.... to save $150.
>days
The first time. The trick would be to template the process.
<added>
I've worked 2.5 days on restoring my dishwasher rack system. Non-OEM replacements (which have less features) start at $100. OEM is $250 + S&H ...if available.
Reason: to keep from entering Dishwasher Replacement Hell. Replacement dws are crap.
>crap
Yes. I replaced my 6 yr old dishwasher. New one takes twice as long to go through a wash cycle. Uses less water to meet EPA standards which is probably good for California and the SW USA but I have no shortage of water here. Does not clean as well as the old one and is drawing electricity all during the longer cycle.
Over the stove microwave died after 4 years, nice lady at the independent repair shop told me the $$ numbers over the phone to maybe fix it, and said "you might do better just going to Lowes and get a new one."
Neighbors, all with appliances about the same age as mine, have had refrigerators, dishwashers, microwaves all die. And yes it is often the circuit boards that fail. Seems like the fancier the appliances with more electronic bells and whistles fail first.
QuoteThe first time. The trick would be to template the process.
OK So find a machine that has some obvious fail points...
circuit, heater unit etc.
develop the fixes like that, and then rinse and repeat. No need to build one that lasts forever, just find one that has fixes that are now easy to do.
>more electronic bells and whistles fail first.
One of my SILs is an absolute sucker for high-end crap. I've seen several of his high-$$, exclusive, TV-Chef endorsed, uber-name-brand appliances (dishwasher, now on his 3rd. Microwave. Gourmet gas range & oven) go tits-up in less than 2 years. Then he spends days of his time waltzing with repairmen. Screw that.
Here's an appliance-buying tip that's served me almost as well as The Lynsky... buy the model that's one level up from the merchant's doorbuster. Two levels up MAX.
Quote from: Rupert on April 29, 2016, 12:10:52 PM
Thats a serious job. took more than several days.... to save $150.
Not for $150. To test himself. To see how far he can go. To learn something. To create fodder for a mega blog post. Despite his comment at the beginning, I don't think the $150 was a top-5 consideration on doing this, it was just the excuse (if it were a $6 part it would be hard to justify... but $150 was *just* enough that he could justify all this time, trouble and hacky look to his spouse... and I bet she still wishes he'd just bought the damn control board).
Not to mention: my new hot water heater has a computer chip and a circuit board in it. LED flashes codes and the plumber says they can plug in and get diagnostics. Hot water heater tanks are not made as well as they used to be, plumber says anything over 10 years is borrowed time. So now it's a race as to which fails first: the brain box or the tank. At least it was made in USA.
I thinking of washing dishes by hand. ;)
Quote from: Mackin USA on May 01, 2016, 03:20:10 PM
I thinking of washing dishes by hand. ;)
There are a million articles saying that it takes less energy to wash dishes in a dishwasher. I wonder how the equation changes when you account for embodied energy and throwing the thing away every 7 years.
I think 7 years is stretching it in the UK>
QuoteTo test himself. To see how far he can go. To learn something.
Yes I get that, and would do it myself if I had time. But when time is short, you need a quick fix. Buying all the parts off him might be a part solution for some, but he would then have all sorts of warranty issues to work with if he started doing it commercially.
While it is being done as a hobbiest, I get it. I just cannot help my brain trying to see a commercial angle. And I don't think it is there.
Although sold as a kit, then you buy the ardino.... so it takes away the warranty problem..... that might work. He just needs to offer a parts list, the code, and the plastic front. Might work.
Once he has one machine worked out, doing it for others as a kit is even easier.
Maybe when I retire :)
I'm sorry... maybe I'm missing something.
I was referring to this guy
http://www.neonsquirt.com/dishwasher.html
who doesn't seem to be selling anything. He just seems to want to tell the world that he figured out how to run his dishwasher with an Arduino, no?
Ergo, no your missing nothing.
I am just trying to think of it commercially.
Got it.
Yes, not a commercial venture. But hey, it's a cheap hobby compared to photography or woodworking!
>>more electronic bells and whistles fail first.
>One of my SILs is an absolute sucker for high-end crap. I've seen several of his high-$$, exclusive, TV-Chef endorsed, uber-name-brand appliances (dishwasher, now on his 3rd. Microwave. Gourmet gas range & oven) go t##s-up in less than 2 years.
Samsung in talks with US regulator on washing machine safety issues. Another of my daughters has one of these high-end washers. Cost was >$800, IIRC. Feature-set is great, but apparently mechanicals are crap.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/28/samsung-in-talks-with-us-regulator-on-washing-machine-safety-issues-after-note-7-recall.html
Funny you should post here again RC, I was ony thinking about this thread the other day.
I have finally found a company that can program and build proper electronics, and cannot help thinking that a base level controller could be designed to fir in the unit, the front essentially blanked off with the simple buttons on, and then replacements found for some of the bearings... no reason why a washing machine shell cannot be made to last forever.
Sell the kits to the repair fitters, where the people want a cheap repair that lasts longer than the expensive replacement. If the repair man makes more moey, might even work :)
Sort of related:
Sweden gives tax credits for repair over toss and replace.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/europe/sweden-money-for-repairs-trnd/index.html
>Sweden
And this is from a country that -according to US news- buys trash from other countries because they make use all their own. Impressive. People quickly respond to tax incentives.
Rupert, I hang out with a group of elder engineers (representing just about all the major disciplines) just to make me feel inadequate, hhh. One of the electronics guys posted this for electronics prototyping:
https://voltera.io/v-one $$$
It has taken an early morning without sleep for me to find this. Sorry RC for not getting back to you.
That is amazing.
I am having 5 pcb boards being built at the mo, and the process is so much more complex than that. I am Imagining software that can be written as a drag and drop ITTT process, the hardware pcb design as a drag and drop, the logic tested on screen, and then the board printed with this. Simple electronics is still complex, but could be done at home. Oh and a 3D printer to put it all in a pretty box. a 1 off for a parts cost of say $30.
I have passed it on to my Prototype engineer.
<Thinking>The key is then probably understanding the correct design process for a robust unit. Its not easy still to design like that. </Thinking>
>drag and drop
Had this bookmarked
http://www.cayenne-mydevices.com/
that is so cool. :)
Well, I needed one of your control panels, Rupert. My 20 yr-old dishwasher's circuit board crapped out Friday.
In keeping with another thread here, the first thing I did was check Amz bestsellers up to $500 ...trouble is, even WITH the vendors spamming the reviews, the best they could muster was 3.5 stars. Figuring that if I'm going to join Dishwasher Hell with the rest of the masses, I would do it with a throwaway. I set my CL scanner on 'wide-angle stun' and picked up one in mint condition for $100. Finished the installation just now --with modifications.
>How much is it going to cost to never have to address this issue again? (from yet another old thread)
1st pix: My drain hose assembly made from automotive heater hose to replace the OEM piece of crap shown above it.
2nd pix: Copper pan under dishwasher with drain hole into crawlspace. This was already there, but I upgraded the wall flashing to copper over edpm
OK, next job after the dog pill box. :)
What's the reasoning for lining it in copper RCJ?
It forms a spill pan that, while thin & malleable, will stand abrasion as the dishwasher is slid in over it. Sheet metal rusts. On a roof, copper lasts about 100 years, so longer inside? After that, I'll let the next guy worry about it.
Got ya!
I've never thought of having a pan to collect the water in case they leak. Looks like a very sensible idea.
It has a hole in the back left corner to let water escape into the crawlspace rather than overflow onto the hardwood floor.