A sobering read for anyone who thinks e-cigs are better :
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7518913/British-factory-worker-57-worlds-person-die-disease-linked-VAPING.html
Seems the oils stay in the lungs.
Lots of press about some deaths here too. Juul coming under a lot of fire.
Juul's spending on proposition to overturn SF's e-cigarette ban soars (https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Juul-s-spending-on-proposition-to-overturn-14467466.php)
Will be interesting to see how this turns out.
Quote from: littleman on September 30, 2019, 05:35:36 PM
Juul's spending on proposition to overturn SF's e-cigarette ban soars
Having seen fawning articles on the founders, it reminds me of one of my favorite sayings: "Every villain is the hero of his own story."
CDC clarifies stance on vaping illness, admits that bootleg THC products are likely to blame
"CDC notes that over three-quarters of people who have reported lung issues after vaping already admitted to using street-bought THC oils"
https://bgr.com/2019/09/30/vaping-illness-health-cdc-thc-products/
Quote from: rcjordan on October 01, 2019, 01:13:51 AM
CDC clarifies stance on vaping illness, admits that bootleg THC products are likely to blame
"CDC notes that over three-quarters of people who have reported lung issues after vaping already admitted to using street-bought THC oils"
https://bgr.com/2019/09/30/vaping-illness-health-cdc-thc-products/
If weed isn't grown organically there's high a aluminium content due to the inorganic fertilisers which ends up in nanospray form when vaped, there's an article about it somewhere i'll try and find.
And in contrast, there are 8,000,000 smoking related deaths a year.
I could go on as for the reasons why all this bullshit, but I like to think the people here have a greater intellect and see the news for what it is and the political shadiness that goes on behind the scenes.
Not sure what is going on in the UK, but in the US this is very much not bullshit. The media have whipped the problem up into something it is not, though, as usual.
We have a counterfeit THC cart problem here where the weed is grown with stuff that kills you and/or mixed with oil binders that can kill you. Yes, the problem is small because it comes from this smaller (than traditional vaping or smoking) group of people running into these products. So, yes, we are talking hundreds of deaths only, for now. But, it's not because of just vaping and the numbers are much smaller due to minor medical issues. They are putting contaminants in conterfeit carts that kill people, full stop.
This is a real issue where a couple of oil binder suppliers mysteriously closed shop and disappeared a few weeks ago when people started dying.
Okay, bullshit was the wrong term to use. People are dying which is a major tragedy however you look at it, so I apologise for that.
But the issue I have is vaping nicotine (e-cigs) has nothing to do with it. It's vaping HTC.
For well over a decade people have been vaping nicotine and all of a sudden some idiot(s) decide to use vitamin E acetate as the base of their HTC products.
There's some research that indicates nicotine may contribute toward DNA damage that enables cancer :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/
Latest info from CDC on US vaping deaths : https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html
Here's a response to that research that may contribute towards DNA damage - https://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h4863/rr-13
We could post links all day, arguing this and countering that, but the crux of it all is the comparison should always be against vaping nicotine vs tobacco, not vaping nicotine vs nothing.
Else if vaping nicotine is deemed unsafe and there is a ban, then tobacco needs to go too. Which to be honest, would end all this as there wouldn't be a need for an alternative. But it will never happen. Tobacco is tied up into society too much - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/13/council-pension-funds-major-investors-tobacco-companies
Instead, for the ones who's addiction is too much, and no matter how much money is pumped into campaigns to make people stop smoking or raising the taxes or tightening the regulations, e-cigs offer an alternative. Not a safer alternative I should add, but one that is miles away from tobacco.
>but the crux of it all is the comparison should always be against vaping nicotine vs tobacco, not vaping nicotine vs nothing.
I agree. This is my main issue with the SF ban, though they claim the reason is that JUUL and the like are attractive products for kids.
So I didn't even know what Juul was until the current issue of Time magazine and that's pretty much all I've read, but two of those points are addressed in the current article and an older one.
>>Not a safer alternative I should add, but one that is miles away from tobacco.
"Juul Illegally Claimed That Its Products Were Safer than Cigarettes, FDA Says"
https://time.com/5672210/juul-illegal-marketing-fda/
---
>>they claim the reason is that JUUL and the like are attractive products for kids.
Among high school kids:
2011: 2% vaping, 16% smoking = 18%
2019: 28% vaping, 6% smoking = 34%
https://time.com/5680988/juul-vaping-health-crisis/
Along with that, they claim that the Juul device was designed to hide easily at school
Quote from: littleman on October 01, 2019, 06:37:04 PM
I agree. This is my main issue with the SF ban, though they claim the reason is that JUUL and the like are attractive products for kids.
It feels a bit more than that.
Back in 1988 the US states agreed to the MSA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement
In short, tobacco companies make annual payments based on sales to the states for lawsuits, medical care and anti-smoking campaigns.
Banks, investors etc then offered the states the cash up front so they could spend the money before they got it.
Back then, sales were high, then came along ecigs that fall outside the MSA, reducing the sales of tobacco quicker than they anticipated.
The states are now in trouble and owe more than they received leaving a shortfall that needs to be bridged - https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/tbcbonds-statemap
(note the sates that owed more are the states that were the first to implement some sort of ban - Michigan, New York, Massachusetts and California)
Anyway, in fear of sounding like I have a tinfoil hat on I'll stop. I'd like to think people's lives are worth more than that.
Mayo clinic results out : http://www.startribune.com/mayo-researchers-link-vaping-illness-to-toxic-inhalation/562002532/?refresh=true
Interesting.
Here's some responses to that - https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-of-lung-biopsies-of-patients-with-lung-injury-due-to-vaping/
"This provides further evidence that it is extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that flavoured nicotine e-liquids of the type that have been used by millions of people around the world for up to a decade (including in the UK) are causing these injuries. Instead contaminants look like they are to blame. Most of the evidence points to adulterants in cannabis vaping but other products may be involved."
Maybe it could have been this - https://www.nbcnews.com/health/vaping/tests-show-bootleg-marijuana-vapes-tainted-hydrogen-cyanide-n1059356
"CannaSafe also tested 10 of the unregulated cartridges for pesticides. All 10 tested positive. The products all contained myclobutanil, a fungicide that can transform into hydrogen cyanide when burned."
"CannaSafe also tested 10 of the unregulated cartridges for pesticides. All 10 tested positive. The products all contained myclobutanil, a fungicide that can transform into hydrogen cyanide when burned." Just as scary as the cases of formaldehyde formation with some e-cigs in the past!
You talking about when the media were reporting on this research? - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069
It was scary at the time but was later debunked - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691517305033
I don't think it was newsworthy enough for the media to report on though so you might have missed it.
Thanks Chunk i hadn't read that report.
CDC: Vaping illness outbreak surpasses 1,000 cases, 18 deaths with no sign of slowing
"roughly 78% of the patients said they vaped THC"
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/03/vaping-lung-cases-surge-to-more-than-1000-with-at-least-18-deaths-cdc-says.html
(Ditto what Drastic said.)
The thing that gets me about this situations and so many other product health issues in recent years is that we allow products to go to market before they are tested, then we ban them once a health concern becomes apparent.
Quote from: littleman on October 04, 2019, 07:59:07 PM
The thing that gets me about this situations and so many other product health issues in recent years is that we allow products to go to market before they are tested, then we ban them once a health concern becomes apparent.
It sounds like a logical step, but how would it work though if all products had to be 'screened' before being allowed on the market?
It would have to be all products too e.g. mobile phones.
It would surely stifle innovation and throw society into the dark ages.
OK, that's going to far, but thinking about it I really don't how one would go about doing it.
- Would there have to be a time limit to ensure the products are safe, say after 10 years, or would it only be for one test?
- Would all the products be tested using the same criteria, or would certain products have a separate category of tests?
- Would it need to be a global join adventure, as one country could have different methods of tests making it fine in one and not in another?
I know the base/core materials are checked but creating products out of them and putting them on the market through a series of more checks would be a quagmire to navigate.
>It sounds like a logical step, but how would it work though if all products had to be 'screened' before being allowed on the market?
I'm struggling to think of a product that doesn't have legal standards that have to be met before they can be sold. My little end of the market has a huge amount of stuff plus specific testing which is ongoing relating to safety. Legal liability is a real threat to both a business but also to the individual directors, prison isn't unheard of https://www.lrbconsulting.co.uk/health-and-safety-blog/three-directors-jailed/
I think mobile phones all need approval before they can be sold.
I'd say the wild west era of vaping is over, the hammer will fall, I'd get out while you ahead if you in the game. Be worth talking to some of the old pill boys, they should be able to explain what happens when the wind changes.
The big tobacco boys have been buying up plenty of vaping companies. They will be piling on the pressure for regulation too, they have the resources to deal with it.
10motives GBP 54mil to BAT
Nicolites USD 187mil (yes 187mil) to Philip Morris
HighendSmoke Undisclosed but I know it was big to BAT
They just the ones "I" know about.
They say I always sold too soon. --Miles Clark
I hear ya, there is regulation for ecigs in the UK since 2017 - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e-cigarettes-regulations-for-consumer-products
So I don't where I was going in my last post, probably trying to say that when something completely new comes out, where there was nothing preceding it, then how to regulate that.
Else ecigs would have never become and disrupt a questionable industry worth billions.
Trump ready to ban vape flavors except tobacco, menthol (https://www.axios.com/trump-ban-flavored-vaping-products-4830652d-af8d-4c84-81b0-2174e9ad3344.html)
Chunkford, are you diversifying?
Totally unregulated market (from a Layman), was bound to catch up. Can see this market getting stomped on the head in Europe. Essentially exchanging one vice for another, think we'll find you can't populate your lungs with random crap without paying a health consequence, just a matter of how much.
Quote from: littleman on November 01, 2019, 08:41:47 PM
Trump ready to ban vape flavors except tobacco, menthol (https://www.axios.com/trump-ban-flavored-vaping-products-4830652d-af8d-4c84-81b0-2174e9ad3344.html)
Chunkford, are you diversifying?
Not straight away, luckily in the UK it's been regulated since 2016.
Public Health England is still standing by their stance - https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2019/10/29/vaping-and-lung-disease-in-the-us-phes-advice/
And the NHS is starting to embrace it with shops opening up inside their hospitals - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/vape-shops-open-nhs-hospital-sites-bid-stub-smoking/
The UK is a market leader, and while not 100% safe it's the best harm reduction for those unfortunate people who still smoke and don't have the will power to quit.