France to try and force Google to hand over search algo

[JasonD]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/643f49ec-e285-11e4-aa1d-00144feab7de.html

Semi ironically, if you set your User Agent to GBot you pass the paywall..

[ergophobe]

Is there even an algo that could be handed over?

Not easy to change UA on this device and can't read the article, but will it force "the algo" to be public? And would that matter? Does anyone have the capital to use that to create a system that would beat Google at its own game?

Or is it like forcing a great photographer to share his camera?

[JasonD]

France set to push Google to reveal 'secret sauce' algorithm
Alex Barker in Brussels and Anne-Sylvaine Chassany in Paris

A man with a BlackBerry phone showing the Google search engine home page as the internet giant celebrates it's 15th birthday today. PRESS ASSOCIATION Photo. Picture date: Wednesday September 4, 2013. The firm has come a long way since September 4 1998, when it was incorporated by founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin, who had met at university three years previously. It was originally called BackRub, but they eventually settled on the name for the website that has become synonymous with internet searching today - so much so that it is used as a verb in its own right. See PA story TECHNOLOGY Google. Photo credit should read: Chris Radburn/PA Wire©PA
Google will have to hand over its secret formula for ranking websites, under a French initiative that would represent the toughest regulatory clampdown so far on Europe's dominant search engine.
The French senate is likely to pass a law this week that would allow the country's national telecoms regulator to monitor search engines' algorithms, with sweeping powers to ensure its results are fair and non-discriminatory.

It comes as the European Commission prepares to formally accuse Google of illegally abusing its dominance of search to favour its own services, a move that would ultimately force the company to fundamentally change its business model or face hefty fines.
The move against Google is part of a growing European backlash against Silicon Valley and the economic disruption of the digital age. Once lauded for their innovative spirit, big US tech groups have come under mounting criticism in Europe over their market dominance and handling of personal data, especially in the wake of the US internet surveillance scandal.
The French initiative will only become law if it is adopted by both the senate and the lower house of parliament. But discussion of the bill comes as the European Commission moves towards serving Google with a formal charge sheet, after years of on-off settlement talks. Complainants are hoping for the so-called "statement of objections" as soon as Wednesday.
Günther Oettinger, the EU's digital chief, and an outspoken critic of Silicon Valley's market power on the continent, told an event in Hanover on Monday that the authorities "have to make or even force platforms, search engines to follow our rules in Europe".
The five-year EU investigation has primarily examined whether Google illegally diverted traffic away from rivals to its own in-house services, providing specific maps, shopping and travel results.
France's Socialist government has joined Germany in calling for search engines and internet platforms to be covered by EU rules ensuring open and non-discriminatory access for all.
The French senate's proposal would seek to tackle Google at a national level by potentially forcing the company to disclose the "secret sauce" — the algorithm through which it ranks websites in its search results and which has fuelled its dominance around the world.
Critics complain that Google's algorithm can be skewed to hurt rivals and want it published so that there is hard evidence to ensure accountability. Google argues such transparency would make its search engine a target of spam and hand rivals its business secrets for free.
Lisa Pollack

The amendment, proposed by centre-right lawmakers and attached to a broader economic reform bill assembled by economy minister Emmanuel Macron, has yet to secure the government backing needed to survive the legislative process and pass in the National Assembly.
But Catherine Morin-Desailly, chair of the Senate's culture, education and communication committee, told the Financial Times that discussions with the government were encouraging.
"The government is well aware of the issues," Ms Morin-Desailly said. "It's a question of ensuring fairness. Too many businesses view search engines as bottlenecks. The net is tightening around [Google]."
If approved, the proposal would give Arcep, France's telecoms regulator, oversight of any search engine that has sufficient power to "structure the functioning of the digital economy". Google would be required to provide links to at least three rival search engines on its homepage, and disclose to users the "general principles of ranking".
Revealing our algorithms — our intellectual property — would lead to the gaming of our results, which would be a bad experience for users
- Spokesperson for Google
Arcep would be responsible for ensuring that the search engine "works in a fair and non-discriminatory manner, without favouring its own services". It would be able to levy fines of up to 10 per cent of Google's global turnover.
A spokesperson for Mr Macron welcomed the amendment as "an occasion to debate constructively the regulation of large digital platforms", pointing out that the French government was already a "driving force" behind similar discussions on a European level.
It is unclear how Google would react to such stringent regulation in France. In a defiant response last year to a regulatory clampdown in Spain, Google opted to shut its news service in the country rather than abide by laws forcing internet news aggregators to pay fees to publishers.
Additional reporting by Richard Waters in San Francisco

[Brad]

Oui! Go France!   

[Travoli]

> Does anyone have the capital to use that to create a system that would beat Google at its own game?

Marissa Mayer?

[Brad]

> Does anyone have the capital to use that to create a system that would beat Google at its own game?

Marissa Mayer?

Also: IBM?

With government support, Germany, France, UK and Italy, probably others could each come up with their own search engines. They all have the talent, universities, technology to create a internet search engine for their own country.  It's just a matter of will and not letting it become a bureaucratic boondoggle.

[bill]

About 10 years ago 30 or so Japanese companies tried to pool their resources to develop a Google competitor. Even with the backing of the Japanese government, several major universities and big brands like Hitachi and Fujitsu the effort failed. Is that because they didn't have access to GG's algo? I doubt it. Even if they had access to it I doubt they could have done much with it.

Come to think of it, at the same time France was trying to do similar things with an EU SE under Jacques Chirac. What ever happened to that?

[Brad]

bill, I think those efforts come under "bureaucratic boondoggle" IMHO.

I don't think a search engine can be designed by committee, but one or two companies/unis working together, with funding could probably come up with something decent.  The problem is staying in business until Google stumbles or loses the favor of the public.  Both are happening now, but their are no alternatives in place to offer a decent choice for the German or French user to switch too.

But the bar to entry is lower today than ever, in 1995 just developing a deep crawler was a huge task, but that programming technology is fairly well understood today. Ditto, data bases, link schemes, on page,etc.  All the underlying building blocks are better understood, cheaper and maybe even available off the shelf.  Algo is tricky but doable, if MS can do Bing, others can do it too.  I really don't think anyone needs Google's algo they just need an algo that is competent, an index that is deep and not be b*stards with it.

[ergophobe]

Algo is tricky but doable, if MS can do Bing, others can do it too

Why do I consistently find Bing results inferior to Google? This is especially true in my work as a scholar researching obscure topics (i.e. not shopping or news).

- the Google algo is better?
- the Google infrastructure is better?
- Google marketing is better and I'm just being duped (though these are "blind search" results from doing the Bing challenge)?
- I've been subtly trained in Google from thousands of searches and so my search patterns fit the Google algo (a possibility I had never considered until just now)?
- all of the above?
- something else entirely?

I suspect all of the above and several factors I haven't thought of. Putting the algo out there and making it available to smart companies like IBM, Microsoft and Amazon might present a challenge to Google. It strikes me that only Amazon has the expertise with massive infrastructure and constant user testing of live products, but the least experience with machine learning and that sort of thing, so I think the algo would do them the most good.

And it still raises the question of whether there's an algo at all. In other words, there are so many pieces to the algorithm and I think we're only a few years away from the point that the people who run the algo don't understand it because it's actually self-optimizing. I thought recent statements from Google and Microsoft would indicate that we have taken the first baby steps down that line.

[Brad]

>obscure topics

I do think Google's index is deeper, or they are able to retrieve more obscure pages faster, or something.  Back in the day, AlltheWeb had some deep indexing (not as fresh but deep) and I could eventually dredge up some good pages on ATW that never appeared on Google.

I guess my bottom line is you don't know if you can beat or even match Google until you try. If we all just give up without trying we might as well just throw the keys to the Internets to Google and go home. The analogy is rocket science: the US and USSR used to be unassailable in rockets, but by staying in the game Europe, Japan, China, India have all had successes in rocket science - the same can be true for search.  Google is good but I don't think they are as good as they were in 2001, because they have become very brandcentric and commercial.

That said, the web has also become, IMO, more commercial, slick but superficial, plagiarized and made for Adsense than in the past.  Even Google don't show really deep search results anymore, just popular.  Maybe that is the key: start a really deep research search engine that is less interested in ranking the superficial but popular high and more interested in solid, original, evergreen and deep content. (Don't ask me how you do that.)

I guess back on to the original topic: I'm not sure anyone would really understand the Google algo if they had it in front of them but I suspect it would help.

[ergophobe]

I'm not sure anyone would really understand the Google algo if they had it in front of them but I suspect it would help.

I guess that was my main question. I think the idea of "the algo" is a handy shorthand for SEO types and I'm not sure it represents something meaningful. That said a team of very smart and very diverse people who had all the Google code could probably find some fascinating stuff that would give them a big leap forward, but it would still take tremendous resources and lots of time, during which Google wouldn't be standing still.