I hate it when ....

[buckworks]

... I spend great effort to write a wise and witty response to something only to find that the thread was locked while I was writing and my time was totally wasted.

[Rumbas]

Auch.

[Rupert]

Post it here then  

I love wise and witty.

[ergophobe]

Well, since the only thread recently locked is the one you asked to have locked, and since Bucky is a pastor's wife... I'll suggest that it just might be a bad idea, even though it is always a shame to be deprived of Bucky's insight and wit. Truly.

[buckworks]

I was unable to recover my earlier post, so here's a partial summary.

It observed that Christmas trees are a relatively recent cultural accretion, not part of the original Christmas story. Ditto for Santa Claus, Christmas cards, and chestnuts roasting on an open fire.

It bemoaned the craziness of how much difference there sometimes is between what scriptures say and what people have done with it and glommed onto it over the years. Many things done or said in the name of "religion" have no discernible connection with what the founder actually taught. I see that happen to my own faith, and I expect it happens in others too.

Final thought for now: considering that the word "holiday" is derived from "holy day", someone who calls it a "holiday tree" isn't being as neutral as they might think. Conversely, someone who takes umbrage at that wording is, well, barking up the wrong tree.

There was more, but I'll stop there ... don't wanna make Ergo too nervous!

[ergophobe]

don't wanna make Ergo too nervous!

Now would I get nervous? Just be careful though... I might be thinking... but then again, you might too...

And I could go on and on about how John Calvin, one of the greatest Christian theologians, succeeded in having Christmas abolished in Geneva as an ungodly and non-Christian, pagan holiday and well, lots of other stuff.

[Rupert]

ergophobe, I was aware of the first, but not that Buckworks is a pastor's wife.  Thanks for that addition.

But I think my gut was right, it was worth asking 

So thank you Buckworks.

[4Eyes]

It observed that Christmas trees are a relatively recent cultural accretion, not part of the original Christmas story

Are you sure about that?

Most Christian academics accept that 'our Christmas' is celebrated near to mid-winter solstice to replace the old pagan festivals that predate it, and that the actual birth date of Jesus would have been nearer May/June, and earlier than the year Zero. It isn't really important to the significance of the celebration IMO, but it does give an explanation of why the evergreen tree is now part of the the event.

Many of the pagan religions would use plants in their rituals (eg. mistletoe) - at winter solstice, the only 'greens' around are every greens.

It seems far more likely that the Christmas Tree as we know it had its roots in the earlier 'holy days'

There are plenty of hokey pagan sites out there that support this theory - personally, I neither support it or oppose it  - not enough evidence either way.

However, even though calling a decorated evergreen tree a 'christmas tree' is clearly a modern invention, I would not be brave enough to rule out the concept of an Evergreen tree being erected and decorated at a pagan winter solstice festival.

[Rupert]

4eyes, isn't the key bit:

not part of the original Christmas story

If so, then are there ever greens in Bethlehem? Granted, once the celebration started getting mixed with pagan stuff, then loads changed, but that is as I understand it is Buckworks point.

[buckworks]

4eyes, decorated trees indeed have long roots (!), but as a way to celebrate the nativity they're an add-on, borrowed from other traditions. That's what I mean when I call it a "cultural accretion."

They can be great fun but IMHO should be considered an optional frill, if one's intention is to celebrate the nativity. I certainly wouldn't consider the (presumed) difference between "Christmas tree" and "holiday tree" as something worth picking a fight over.

to replace the old pagan festivals that predate it

That's why John Calvin was sour on Christmas. I wonder what he'd think of the commercial orgy it has become in our time?

[4Eyes]

4eyes, isn't the key bit:

Quote
not part of the original Christmas story

not for me - it was the fact that 'holiday tree' or 'holy day tree' could be perfectly valid names that predate the Christmas tradition.

'could be' doesn't mean 'are definitely' .. but enough evidence to not be definitive either way.

@buckworks
Not 'picking a fight' of any description - just making the 'holy day tree' point.

Personally, I don't have any objections to calling it a 'Christmas tree', and I think most UK based non-Christians would feel the same. I don't 'do' Christmas, or any other religious festivals, but stripped of the commercial horrors, I don't object to it either.

I think that the divide in our views on such matters is down to the very different way our two sides of the Atlantic handle 'freedom of religion'. This is embedded in the US National identity, and any specific discussion of such touches on religion AND politics (and so should rightly be off-bounds for forum discussion). It is far less political in the UK - and religious freedom of expression far less controversial as a result. But then, far less of us go to Church regularly.

To have half a chance of understanding the gap, one needs to step outside one's own 'cultural limitation' and look at through the other sides 'cultural limitations'.
I am sure we all try - but it really is a lot harder than it first seems.

... but, in short, taking all that in to account.....the whole 'what to call it a christmas tree' thing seems very mad to any Brit who doesn't make the effort to look behind it.

[Brad]

The tricky bit for Americans is that we are very aware that we are a nation made up of many ethnicities and creeds, many of whom did not get along with each other in the Old World but have to live, peacefully side-by-side here in the New World.

[edo]

... but, in short, taking all that in to account.....the whole 'what to call it a christmas tree' thing seems very mad to any Brit who doesn't make the effort to look behind it.

I would wager that well over half of the British population would be up in arms if David Cameron referred to a christmas tree as a holiday tree. He'd probably lose the election overnight.

[Rupert]

But What would they do if Ed Milliband said it?

[edo]

It would create a stir and then die down as he has virtually no input on British political life as it stands.

My point is that the majority of British people are not liberal, tolerant quasi-academics like 4Eyes. We're as flawed as the next nation when it comes to religious, political and racial attitudes.