Author Topic: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??  (Read 20374 times)

bill

  • Devil's Avocado
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Avast!
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2015, 02:37:25 AM »
So let's all talk about how the Greeks lived beyond their means, thought they were rich when they were poor, did not manage expenses versus revenue. Let's all talk about how they got what was coming. And let's all just hope we're not in Japan, the US, Iceland, Portugal or Italy.
Argh. I resemble that comment. Didn't realize it was that bad in Japan.

Gurtie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1628
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2015, 07:18:14 AM »
>> lived beyond their means

don't think any country is immune from that?  I don't think the UK should be name calling anytime soon, for sure.

Adam C

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 639
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2015, 10:04:58 AM »
"The EU’s old, outdated ideas have been rejected at the ballot box in exchange for a new approach and fresh thinking.

The result is a tired, stumbling European Union that is dying on its feet before our very eyes. Credibility for the project is fading fast as citizens right across Europe awaken to the reality of its authoritarian instincts that seek to run roughshod over public opinion."

 ??? ??? ???

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11720081/Greece-votes-No-The-European-Union-is-dying-before-our-eyes.html


I've not yet read the article or the majority of this thread, but was surprised by the strength of that quote - even for the Telegraph, which is firmly right of centre - so went to check who had written it and saw...

Quote
By Nigel Farage

A name all Brits will be more than familiar with.  Leader of the single issue party, UKIP, who campaign to get Britain out of Europe, and general figure of fun/hate/ridicule



Rumbas

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
  • Viking Wrath
    • MSN Messenger - rasmussoerensen@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - seorasmus
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2015, 11:24:08 AM »
I'm not terribly worried, however too many Grexits and the European Union is under pressure. Greece has been neglecting their economy for way too long and has been run by an bunch of douchebags imho. You get what you wish for I guess and I'm pretty sure all the other Euro countries are pretty fed up paying for yet another country run by idiots.

>UK and Denmark were very wise not to join the Euro common currency.

Well, the Danish Krone was under heavy pressure recently but we held up. Personally I dont give a damn about the currency - it'd be Euro or Kroner. It's all more or less digital.

Mackin USA

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2905
  • Abstract Artist
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2015, 11:38:11 AM »
Perhaps the biggest drop-dead date is July 20. That's the day Greece must pay 3.5 billion euros on a bond held by the European Central Bank. If it doesn't pay, the ECB could withdraw all the emergency credit, collapsing Greece's banking system.

Many analysts think that would result in Greece leaving the euro.

If the government defaults to the ECB itself, the thinking goes, it would be impossible to deny the government is bankrupt. And that could extend to the banks that are tied to it.

[Yahoo! Finance]

PS: Greece has been neglecting their economy for way too long and has been run by an bunch of douchebags imho.  ;D YUP
Mr. Mackin

ergophobe

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9631
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2015, 02:48:52 PM »
Bilingual countries are inherently politically unstable.  Which makes a United States of Europe almost impossible.

Based on what examples?

In much of Europe, the whole idea of linguistic unity is a culturally constructed tradition that reinterprets history backwards. Most European nation states achieved linguistic uniformity only recently and through often draconian means. The British were experts at this, not only at home but also in colonies, which is my Canadian relatives of my father's generation are so resentful about the whole language issue.

The idea that linguistic unity is fundamental to national identity is an idea that was crafted and invented mostly over the last four centuries. And while it now appears to us to be basic to the nature of things, there is no fundamental law of nations that requires that be true.

Let's see, historically we have
 - France: truly a multilingual nation until the late 19th century. As of 1800, only 15 of France's 85 departments were majority French speaking. In the 1870s, someone from Paris still couldn't travel to Toulon and understand the conversation in the street. In the 1930s, the central government had to force school teachers to enact corporal punishment against non-French speaking kids in an effort to stamp out local languages. Historian Mona Ozouf recounts how her father, also her teacher, would beat her at school for speaking Breton and beat her at home for speaking French. Check out Eugen Weber, Peasants into Frenchman, for an interesting read on this.

 - Britain: I'm not sure when it ceased to be truly multilingual, but certainly the opposition to the introduction of the Book of Common Prayer was based largely on the fact that large numbers of Englishmen didn't speak English at the time


And in present-day Europe

 - Belgium... has been bilingual for as long as its been a country, except of course for when it was trilingual and had a Spanish king.

 - Switzerland - possibly the most stable country in Europe lo these last 500 years and it's an understatement say it's quad-lingual because really the various forms of Swiss German are perhaps more than dialects (I'm not a linguist, but I know from one end of CH to the other, people can't necessarily converse in their native tongue).

 - Ireland - OK, you may have a point there, but the language is a focal point for other tensions, not a source. It's a convenient differentiator. It's a history of oppression at issue there and it would be true regardless of what language the oppressed spoke. Focusing on language in that case is like focusing on skin color in the US.

 - Canada - mmm on the surface you have a point, but after a bit of touchiness for a decade or two, they seem to have sorted that out and we don't hear a lot from the Separatistes anymore (and while my father's generation were hot about the issue, my cousins my age not so much)

 - The United States - not officially bilingual, of course, but we will probably soon have more native Spanish speakers than Spain (currently about 38 million in the US, if you subtract Basque and Catalan speakers from Spains 47 million, we can't be far off). Tension, yes, but not instability.

 - China - OK, there's been some instability there this century, but seen as a whole, a remarkably stable society compared to Europe. In addition to the two languages we think of (Mandarin and Cantonese), there are many other regional languages. Granted, they have the advantage of a common written language, so perhaps it's a special case.

 - India - a feast of languages. Every damn state has it's own official language and huge swaths of the country don't speak Hindi. You could argue that India is not a stable country of course and maybe it isn't, but I don't see language driving division in India. Again, it's religion, culture, history. Language is the least of it.

I'm probably missing something obvious, but there is nothing inherent in preventing multilingual geographic units from forming successful federations as far as I can see.

Brad

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4256
  • What, me worry?
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2015, 04:40:07 PM »
On of the first lessons I learned in those Poli-Sci courses in international relations.  Language often indicates other differences: religion, culture, wealth that can make the divides deeper.

One language has to dominate.  Remember the modern nation state is not that old as you point out in your examples, but it is the most stable political unit we have yet found.

We, in PoliSci, used to hold up Belgium as an exception to the rule but look what happened recently, as soon as all external threats from bigger Powers or neighbors vanished Belgium started to fracture politically along the language divide.  The Walloons and the Flemish could stick together as long as bigger tribes (and or the USSR) was trying to push them around but absent that and they fracture.

Why did the French pretty much stamp out the Bretton language? For exactly the reasons I describe.

Why did America put so much effort into the melting pot rather than multiculturalism?

Why are all the African states so messed up?

I would not call India exactly stable, but it may be that they are so fractured that no one group is totally dominant. Remember the British gave India: an non-political bureaucracy, a professional military, democracy, red tape and the English language all of which lend themselves to stability.

Forget industrialization and technology, respectfully, Europe is just a big bunch of tribes (like all the rest of the world) and people seem to get more tribal if there is an "Us vs. Them" Non-Pluralistic schism like a language divide sitting like an elephant in the room.



rcjordan

  • I'm consulting the authorities on the subject
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16840
  • Debbie says...
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2015, 05:48:16 PM »
>Belgium

Hasn't it been dysfunctional as a 'unified' country for decades now?  From what I've read over the years, it's not even able to pull itself together long enough to formally split.

ergophobe

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9631
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2015, 01:52:50 AM »
[Hope this isn't trying everyone's patience as this has gotten to be a pretty abstract take on the topic, but of course it shouldn't be that painful to drag the scrollbar if you're not interested....]

[Brad - I'm just shooting the shit here... I like debate. I figure you would not have posted such long considered responses if you didn't too. I hope this isn't too over the top]

Sorry, but I just don't buy that linguistic diversity is an inherent flaw in the European Union that cannot be overcome.

All diversity is destabilizing to some extent, though as we know from biology, it is also a reservoir of variation that allows for adaptation. Linguistic division, especially as an indicator of cultural division, is one of those destabilizing factors. However, it is one factor among a vast number.

The way you're looking at the historical record, both the successful and failed states prove you right.

 - If a state is linguistically diverse and splits, that's proof that linguistically diverse unions are doomed to fail.

 - If a state is linguistically diverse and manages to survive so long that the dominant language extinguishes all others, then that is proof that linguistic diversity was a source of instability that needed be stamped out in order for the state to survive as a cohesive unit. But it ignores the survival of the state itself.

 - And then every other example (Canada, Switzerland, India, China), all seem to be "exceptions that prove the rule."

It essentially means that your hypothesis is not falsifiable. To a historian, this could be construed as a form of Whig History, an interpretation that sees things through the lens of an inexorable march toward the modern constitutional state as we know it. Whether truly Whig or not, it strikes me as strongly presentist, having a bias of working backwards from the present.

In fact, what we see overwhelmingly in modern Europe are stable nation states that started out as linguistically diverse that have now evolved into such stable and linguistically unified states that we forget the original diversity. Most Frenchmen have no idea how diverse their country was just 150 years ago.

I see no inherent reason that the EU couldn't follow the same trajectory and certainly see no reason why the decreasing linguistic diversity of these states is proof that linguistic diversity is an insurmountable obstacle to long-term union.

Let's go back to France. The crown and later governments used all means available to extend the power of the central government. One of those means was indeed a sort of linguistic imperialism, which in your reading is proof that linguistic diversity within the state has some special status as a divisive force that needs to be stamped out.

However, France survived, which is the salient point. Perhaps equally germane is that though the crown and later republics attempted to achieve linguistic union, they also did the same in many other realms: law, currency, weights and measures, education, military (conscription being a major unifier) and many other domains. I don't see any reason to give language a special status in that list.

Perhaps more important, that list of differences is not that unlike the list of differences in the EU. You can add to it differences in cuisine and folk traditions.

If I look at the history of France, the only form of diversity that ever threatened to break France apart from within was religious diversity among people who otherwise shared a language and culture.

That doesn't strike me as in any way unique. In past times, it was perfectly reasonable to have states with many languages and weights and measures and marriage customs, but the idea that a state could have two religions and survive was difficult to ponder.

All that to say that I just don't buy the argument that linguistic diversity has some special uber-powerful destabilizing influence that makes it impossible for the EU to survive.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think the EU will survive, but I just don't buy that its ultimate failure was written in stone from the outset simply because it encompasses different languages. That is simply not the precedent in Europe.

JasonD

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1420
  • Look at THAT!!!!
    • AOL Instant Messenger - JasonDDuke
    • View Profile
    • Domain Names
    • Email
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2015, 07:16:39 AM »
What a bloody great response ;)

bill

  • Devil's Avocado
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Avast!
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2015, 07:56:07 AM »
Don't forget to pay attention to the China markets today, which melted down... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-08/china-trade-halts-hit-2-2-trillion-as-state-intervention-fails

Mackin USA

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2905
  • Abstract Artist
    • View Profile
Mr. Mackin

Brad

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4256
  • What, me worry?
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2015, 01:31:56 PM »
I'm not so sure those countries are exceptions:

China - this is more the remains of an imperial state model than a nation state model.  Roughly, the Communists inherited/conquered the remnants of a very ancient empire and basically just continued it with a new coat of Communist paint. (Ditto USSR.)

Canada - let us not forget that in the late 1960's or early 70's (I forget) Canada deployed troops in its cities in response to bombings by a Quebec independence group.  To this day there is tremendous resentment in large parts of English speaking Canada about all the concessions given to Quebec. Rather than being an exception, I'd say Canada ain't done with this issue yet.

Switzerland -  The language groups came together long ago in order to defend against more powerful neighbors.  The threat might be more economic today than military but they stick together because none of the sub regions could survive alone.  Democracy helps, confederation rather than too strong a central government helps.

India - I would apply the same model as China: it is more of an inherited empire than anything. It might evolve into a nation state or not. but they are doing their thing and the story isn't done yet.

Back to Europe:

I think the elites are way to far ahead of the people on European unification.  Big change is generational and also emotional, if you don't have the hearts and minds of the masses with you then political legitimacy vaporizes. 

rcjordan

  • I'm consulting the authorities on the subject
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16840
  • Debbie says...
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2015, 01:57:55 PM »
May 25, 2014
Flemish separatists are big winners in Belgian election

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/25/us-belgium-election-idUSBREA4O0DT20140525

Brad

  • Inner Core
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4256
  • What, me worry?
    • View Profile
Re: So, what do you Euro MFs think ??
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2015, 03:04:55 PM »
>uber-powerful

Not sure I would call it that.  It is a rift in the society.  Rifts can be overcome either by common need and the genuine willingness to make pragmatic compromises (eg. Belgium up until recently) or by melding those rifts together somehow (eg. the Saxons and the Normans eventually united linguistically by pottering around long enough until it just evolved.)  Bilingual countries can exist, but for how long and will they fracture again on language lines?

>Europe

Look the Bavarians still don't totally trust the Northern Germans (Prussians if you will). The Scots don't totally trust the English.  Northern Europeans think Southern Europeans are slackers, while Southern Europeans think Northerners are dour, starch their undershorts and just don't know how to party. Eastern Europeans dont trust the Western Europeans to defend them and the Easterners would love to have several mountain ranges between them and the Russians.  Thats just all mostly historical baggage.  Throw in religion, culture, language, corruption, etc. and you have a lot of reasons for instablitity.

Prediction: if the EU tries to outlaw serving beer in Imperial Pints in British pubs again, there will be war. :-)

>Belgium

The rift in Belgium surprised me as I had thought the issues to be long settled. Obviously a lot of dissatisfaction has been brewing for a very long time.