The Core
Why We Are Here => Economics & Investing => Topic started by: agerhart on May 18, 2012, 03:55:09 PM
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anyone?
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If I had money, I would buy.
It would be buying for the same reason I'd buy Apple. I don't believe the hype but do believe the markets believe it and that will drive the price
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IMO it will sky rocket for the next year, and then crash and burn as they start to ruin Facebook to try and make some serious dosh out of it.
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Loads of shares traded today and back to its opening price.
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(AP) SINGAPORE - Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin has renounced his U.S. citizenship, a move expected to save him hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes stemming from the company’s impending initial public offering.
The Brazil-born 30-year-old became a U.S. citizen in 1998 but has lived in Singapore since 2009. Giving up his citizenship will allow him to avoid paying taxes on billions of dollars of capital gains when Facebook launches its IPO Friday. Singapore does not have a capital gains tax.
Saverin gave up his citizenship in the first quarter of this year, the U.S. Internal Revenue Service said.
http://www.whec.com/article/stories/S2618629.shtml?cat=10077
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Well, here in America our Supreme Court ruled that corporations are people. Corporations do this sort of thing all the time. If they are going to go after him they should go after Exxon Mobil & Google.
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FB shares drop below flotation price:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18141990
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FB P/E = 80
Google P/E = 18
Apple P/E = 13
I think they shot too high.
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Yeah, who's the Zucker? I bet they'll drop even lower as the insiders sell out and retire. I wouldn't touch it for a while.
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Investors are nervous at the moment because of the eurozone crisis, not least potential Greek exit starting next month.
Really, really bad time to buy shares in general, I think.
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The stock sites I read have started calling it FacePlant.
>bad time
>Greece
Agreed, but I wouldn't have bought FB at 80 p/e even if times were hothothot.
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Lol, just heard on the news some investors are looking to sue due to facebook being over evaluated.
They also said Google and apple are valued at 20x times their annual profits, where facebook was valued at 156x times their annual profits - now that's just crazy!
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>facebook being over evaluated.
who would have ever guessed? :o
>FacePlant
thats a good one.
>bad time
>Greece
...well, it depends on how you look at it. Me, I think Greece is the first domino into a world recession/depression - which means this might be Zuckerberg's last opportunity to get out before it gets REALLY bad. In which case, he will be playing this really well, in retrospect, a few years from now, if things really do go to hell. Eyeballs only matter if they are attached to pocketbooks, otherwise they are just burning your bandwidth.
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...well, it depends on how you look at it. Me, I think Greece is the first domino into a world recession/depression
Completely off topic, but this is my theory to all this voodoo talk of the end of the world malarkey on the 21/12/12
Rather than some cataclysmic event ending the world, it will rather be financial issues that make everyone poor and on the same level. The likes of which Ethiopia can start building metropolises.
Like I said way off topic, but I'm happier now I have mentioned it in public :p
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I don't think Greece is a domino, they aren't even a dot on the double six. With respect to any Greek members, and purely from a financial perspective, if they just shut the whole place down everybody else would be better off. If you look at what they contribute to the EU against what they take...like a brother who is always borrowing and never pays back.
Now if we could only get rid of Scotland.
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> I don't think Greece is a domino, they aren't even a dot on the double six.
I hear they are 3%. But I also hear that is the straw that will break the Euro and the dollar. Once they default the others who were marginally making it, fail, taking the rest with them. Word is here there are already bank runs in Spain. Maybe this is a better topic for the economics forum after another drink, but my point is if you were Zuckerburg and you were pessimistic about the economy, you might decide to just cash out now knowing that CTR was going to go through the floor if the economy tanks.
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>domino
I posted this about a year ago, still seems on target.
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogoct11/euro-debt-dominoes10-11.html
> CTR
Apparently, FB has a real weakness when incomes to serving ads to a mobile browser or app.Mark Cuban said he considered that to be the big long term problem with revenue generation.
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>I hear they are 3%
From an EU perspective I think it is more like 2% in 6% out (I'd double check though!). Net result of sawing them off and floating them out in the mid-Atlantic would be plus 4%. Let a few banks take a haircut, I'm sure they will let us citizens absorb the cost over a few years.
>Spain
A much bigger economy, still a dead beat brother from an EU perspective though. On the face of it no big loss but the issue is, and the case may be the same with Greece but I have no knowledge, the cash/black economy is huge. I'm not talking your local plumber, big companies still send out guys every month to collect "cash" to settle "accounts". I think in some of the economies we can't really know what the true impact will be.
I think rather than a wholesale collapse of the world economy we will increasingly accept that for some countries maybe democracy isn't the best path to take. Greece as an example only became one in 1974, Mackin has shoes older than that. How we manage that, in the context of two world worlds last century, is what I think will define how the EU economy moves forward.
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If I had a deadbeat brother there is no way I'd cosign for him in buying a car. It seems Germany took way too much on face value when agreeing to share a currency with countries which have no history of fiscal responsibility. It reminds me of the story of the turtle and the scorpion.
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The Stupid Test
By Dr. Steve Sjuggerud
Thursday, May 31, 2012
My mom doesn't buy stocks. "Too risky," she says. But last week, she asked me what I thought about Facebook…
"Facebook might be a good product… but it's a horrible stock," I said. "I would never buy it."
Facebook shares are an investor's "Stupid Test"…
If you buy shares of Facebook, I believe you will never succeed as an investor.
The way to make money through investments is simple…
• You buy an asset when it is completely ignored and cheap (like gold a decade ago).
• You sell an asset when it is popular and expensive (like Internet stocks in 2000 or real estate in 2006).
Simple and sensible, right?
Right now, Facebook is outrageously popular and ridiculously expensive… so what should you do? Should you buy it? Or sell it?
In order to become a successful long-term investor, it's critical you understand The Stupid Test.
There are two parts to the Stupid Test for investors: popularity and price. Let's tackle popularity first…
Facebook is the largest Internet-stock IPO ("initial public offering") in history – bigger than anything in the Internet boom in 2000 and bigger than Google's IPO. At $38 a share, it is the 23rd-biggest stock in America.
I can't remember this much hype since the dot-com peak in 2000.
The stories are crazy… Parents are cashing in their kids' college savings accounts and putting all the money into Facebook shares. And talk about popular… While promoting their stock this week, the Facebook guys – including 28-year-old founder Mark Zuckerberg – "were treated like rock stars," The Economist magazine wrote.
Long [lines] snaked out of hotels where they were holding meetings, as investors lined up to hang on their every word. Hordes of photographers rushed to take pictures of Mr. Zuckerberg, in his trademark hoodie, as he and his colleagues were whisked off to waiting limousines.
Does it sound like Facebook is "ignored" or "hated" to you?
In all this hype, you have to wonder… Who is selling?
If Facebook is such a great stock to own, it must be a bunch of REAL DUMMIES selling right now, right? What fools! Who are these dummies who are selling? Let's take a look:
• Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg is selling some shares. Actually, it's more than "some." Zuckerberg cashed in over $1 billion worth of stock today. What a real dummy this guy must be for selling now, huh?
• Peter Thiel – the founder of PayPal and a Facebook board member since 2005 – sold $600 million worth of shares today. This guy can't be that smart… right? I mean, what's does the founder of PayPal know about how money works?
• Facebook board member and LinkedIn founder James Breyer is selling $1.7 billion worth. What a fool!
• Wall Street titan Goldman Sachs is selling over $1 billion worth. I guess Goldman Sachs knows nothing about investing money either, huh?
Wait… Who are the REAL dummies here? These guys… or the investing public that is gobbling this stuff up?
Facebook might be a decent product… But it's a terrible stock to buy today. Let me explain…
Facebook shares are so outrageously expensive, they can't possibly deliver on the hype.
Wal-Mart, for example, had $450 billion in sales in the last 12 months. And its stock market value today is around $200 billion.
Facebook had $3.7 billion in sales in the last 12 months. And its stock market value at $38 per share is around $104 billion.
Look, if Facebook grew its sales 50-fold – from roughly $4 billion to roughly $200 billion – its shares would STILL be more expensive than Wal-Mart shares (based on the price-to-sales ratio).
Dreamers think that Facebook will come up with new ways to make money. Facebook needs to dream up 50 times more revenue than it has today. So far, that isn't happening…
In the first quarter of 2012 (Q1 2012), Facebook's sales were actually down 6% from the previous quarter (Q4 2011). Earnings were down 32%. Facebook blamed the decline in sales and earnings on "seasonal factors." But that doesn't fly – earnings were down 12% this quarter from the same period a year ago (Q1 2011). For comparison, Wal-Mart's earnings were UP 10% in the first quarter from the same period a year ago.
In short, Facebook's business isn't growing nearly fast enough for the stock to be worth buying today.
This Facebook hype is just like the hype back at the peak of the dot-com days in 2000, when everyone wanted Internet stocks at crazy prices – even when they had no money-making business model.
Facebook shares are not cheap and ignored. They are the complete opposite – they are outrageously expensive and insanely overhyped. If you want to make money as an investor, this is NOT what you want to buy.
And if you do want to buy it, you've failed the Stupid Test.
If you bought Facebook, I strongly urge you to get rid of it… It is ridiculously overhyped and overpriced.
Good investing,
Steve Sjuggerud
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> FB P/E = 80
> Google P/E = 18
> Apple P/E = 13
> I think they shot too high.
Facebook's stock has now dropped by about half since the IPO. It is now well below the level at which most employees have been granted stock in the past 18 months. At $20, it is still expensive relative to the current expected earnings growth for the company and the Google benchmark; p/e =31 according to the news articles today.
Personally, I think we had another internet bubble propelled, in part, by FB mania.
"Facebook, Groupon, Pandora and Zynga have Drained Almost $50 Billion from Investors" (Ouch!)
http://www.dailydealmedia.com/789facebook-groupon-pandora-and-zynga-have-drained-almost-50-billion-from-investors/
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Honestly, I think FB needs to stop chasing the advertising model and look at other areas unique to them. Advertising will kill them off if they are not careful and it will certainly ruin the FB experience.
How about this for an off the cuff idea. They could integrate their own ecommerce platform, then by connecting it to the popular carts (and include an API for good measure) for ease of population, would/could open up a shopping/mall section next to the new feeds people can browse - How this shopping section is presented and function is another thought process though.
I just find it crazy FB can't monetise their 800 million users and mounds of data. Maybe a 'willingness to break the norm and do something radical' approach is needed?
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I still think they need to go with wedding lists. special likebookmarklet, adds to page, FB runs aff model, when someone buys auto posts to their feed and tells the happy couple. FB get the wedding data and know who is likely to be at wedding and can then place ads relevant to stag/hens, weddings, honeymoons, hotels for guests who travel to wedding etc on standard ad basis. Allow donations to honeymoon fund via Fcommerce. Works on all levels.
Roll that out to baby showers etc. Move into new baby/ new home / all sorts of packages.
Also surprised they haven't got an official review module yet frankly. Very monetisable.
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You do wonder what the hell they are playing at.
They may never create their own behemoth that is adwords, but I'm sure they could have lots a little ones that make up for it.
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even just making 'web search' more prominent. the search results you get from the top search bar seem like an afterthought and only really serve as backfill to a query.
im sure they could have a good revenue sharing deal with bing.
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>Drained Almost $50 Billion from Investors
People have short memories.
FB's p/e is still ~66. I bet it keeps on coming down till its about $8-6/share.
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Buy at $18, so this guy says
http://aswathdamodaran.blogspot.com/2012/08/facebook-face-plant-time-to-friend.html
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>$8-6/share
Are they earning around $1B a year just now. I would guess a bookmaker would have better odds that FB won't be the major social player by then.
Still, that database of theirs must be worth a pretty penny.
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FWIW: Peter Thiel, FB's earliest institutional investor and a company insider (director), sold the vast majority of his stake in the company last week, as soon as the first insider lockup expired. Some went at the IPO price but he sold most of the remaining 27.9 million at prices from $19.27 to $20.69 a share. This makes it look like $20-ish may be as good as it gets for a while.