Author Topic: 2 week incubation or is it?  (Read 1944 times)

Rupert

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2 week incubation or is it?
« on: April 09, 2020, 08:23:45 AM »
We have been in lock down for 2 1/2 weeks in the UK now, so barring some of the obvious early problems on tubes and in the parks, we should by my calculations bee seeing a drop off in the number of cases. 

Deaths will fall off a bit later.

But we are not. 

Have the experts got the 2 weeks (av 11.5 days in one study) wrong, or is something else going on.  If its the same in another week, and cases are still going up, then what then?   

China thinks we have not locked down hard enough.
Quote
COVID-19 twice as contagious as previously thought – CDC study | ThinkPol
https://thinkpol.ca/2020/04/08/covid-19-twice-contagious-previously-thought/

I hope the experts are right and the numbers are dropping.  If anyone finds anything about the incubation period, let me know please, its worrying me.
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nffc

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2020, 09:34:08 AM »
I think it is more a question of compliance/severity rather than incubation period.

Looks to me like the curve is starting flatten in UK, next few days will be interesting. Of course the more we test the more cases we will find, that queers the numbers.

Damian

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2020, 10:14:34 AM »
I imagine the unknown percentage of infected people a the moment of lockdown would also make a huge difference per region to the time needed for new cases to go down.

Rupert

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2020, 11:05:09 AM »
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compliance/severity rather than incubation period.
  Not locked down hard enough.

Certainly the first few days were a bit of a farce, but as most of my friends do not live in cities (with the exception of London) its difficult to get a feel for whats happening on the street. 
The rural areas are in lock down, but there is gossip that says the cities are not taking it so seriously.

But what I SEE is very strict social distancing in the UK. And from that I would expect a bit more than we are getting. The numbers are still going up. The curve might be flattening, but less than I would have thought on a 2 week incubation.

imagine if EVERYONE was completely isolated 2 weeks ago.  There should be NO new cases right now. Regardless of the numbers infected at the time of lockdown. So a family of 2 might have passed it on in that time.  etc etc... still looks a steep graph to me.

so maybee its only 2 weeks and actually huge numbers of the pop are cheating.
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Damian

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2020, 11:38:05 AM »
> if EVERYONE was completely isolated 2 weeks ago.  There should be NO new cases right now.

There would still be infected persons locked down with non-infected persons.
If for example 10% of all confined micro groups (families) had an asymptomatic infected person in it at the start of lock down versus 20% ..
20% would double the chances of getting infected even while being in lock down  (or at the work-place with the same logic)  and cause many more new cases.

nffc

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2020, 12:05:10 PM »
I use https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus for data, they have a 3 day rolling chart too, attached.

Rupert

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2020, 01:41:12 PM »
Ok, so Damian, it depends also on the average size of the isolated family,  (there was talk of small hotspots of asymptomatic people passing it on to each other, a group of 4 for example could pass it round for 2 months, go back out into society and then release it back to the population)

I wonder how the size of the family unit varies from district to district and country to country....   I bet rural pops tend to have larger family units in the UK> wild guess of course.

Nice graph thx. Very clear now.
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ergophobe

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2020, 06:53:01 PM »
The other thing to keep in mind is that your timeline doesn't account for progress of the disease.

1. Incubation: 2-14 days
2. Initial onset period, during which most people who will get desperately sick are still doing fine - 5 days is what I hear from my doctor friend who is managing his hospital's response and elderly respiratory section.
3. Things start to go bad. People are still at home and maybe not even reporting in yet. 0-5 days
4. Things ARE bad and they go to the hospital: we're now at 7 to 24 days from infection
5. They die. Now we're anywhere from 7 to 60 days from first infection

So if you're looking at deaths, it's a long pipeline.

If you look at most common progression, though, you would be looking at 5 days incubation, another 5 days to turn bad and another while to turn fatal. So for fatalities, you would expect them to peak about 2-4 weeks after total lockdown.

rcjordan

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2020, 08:24:42 PM »
More coronavirus patients testing positive again after recovery: report | TheHill
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/491950-Coronavirus-patients-testing-positive-again-after-recovery-report?amp

littleman

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2020, 08:34:38 PM »
All very good points.  I think it is also very likely that in some households intra-family spread may take a while; think about the house with the brooding teenagers who spend all their time in their room, somewhat isolated from other members of the family.  I've also seen people interacting with extended families, like grandparents babysitting their grandkids while the parents work, and I have a neighbor who has visited his brother's family for dinner. 

I honestly don't think this will be over in the US or UK until we have a vaccine or herd immunity, neither place has their act together enough.

===

Edit RC's link: There seems to be a lot of false negatives in testing.  My cousin is an ICU nurse, she had the symptoms to a T (dry cough, head aches, fever, breathing difficulties) and there was a COVID-19 patient on her floor.  Her test came back negative.  I know it is only anecdotal case, but I am seeing a lot of people saying the same thing.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 08:44:32 PM by littleman »

ergophobe

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2020, 09:03:39 PM »
lot of false negatives in testing.

Minimum 20%, likely 30% and some studies showing over 50%. This is a huge problem if we expect to lift shelter in place and go to a test and trace protocol. If the test lets 1/4 of the infected people through, how can test and trace work?

nffc

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Re: 2 week incubation or is it?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2020, 03:52:38 PM »
Ooops