Worth a read

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/18/a-hard-sell-the-industries-that-cant-get-millennials-buying

Millennials, I hate that phrase..

Kind of related: http://gizmodo.com/5851062/generation-x-is-sick-of-your-bullshit

>Millennials, I hate that phrase..

Ditto. Worse is the name for the next group: Generation K
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/19/think-millennials-have-it-tough-for-generation-k-life-is-even-harsher

>sick-of-your-bullshit

Bingo! That really the biggest part of it, imo.  Everyone senses that we're constantly be lied-to, whether it's corporations or politicians.  They've grown up under this dark cloud and are rebelling the only way they know how.  I see vestiges of this sentiment everywhere here in the US, but it's pretty easy to see surfacing against our utility companies --electric, gas, phone, cable, isps.

>>Gen X

Great screed!

The combo of articles reminds me of a great line from the Bill Murray version of Razor's Edge, a sentiment absent from the book or the Tyrone Power version of the movie. At one point someone (his wife?) asks him if he's ever going to get himself together and get serious about work and he says

"I got a second chance at life and I'm not going to waste it on a big house, a new car every year and a bunch of friends who want a big house and a new car every year."

That struck me as words to live by in 1984, but that was a time in the Reagan years when hippies were gone from college campus and some people actually wore blazers to class like Michael J Fox in Family Ties (1982-1989).

It seems like it took 30 years, but Millennials finally decided that was good advice.

Yup, Gen X is used to disappointment... but they (we depending on which def you use) expected more. They thought the big house and new car every year was a choice until dissuaded by years on the treadmill not making it happen for many of them (I know several who can't get their car back on the road without a loan from a friend if they blow a tire).

Millennials shortcut that process. Most know already that it isn't going to happen, don't want it to happen, don't care if it happens. My nephew thinks sinking all his money into an asset that can't be moved or quickly sold is foolish and he chooses to race cares rather than buy a house.... and I applaud him!

Quotesinking all his money into an asset that can't be moved or quickly sold is foolish

In the UK a part of that mentality I think came from the war years. The people in the UK were seriously terrified of the Nazi threat, and so "building security"  pardon the play on words, became one of the driving forces.
Buying property has been so far a good investment for us. At 52 we now have pension panic, with the realisation that we cannot work forever, and there is not enough in the pot to live off (to the level we have become accustomed). I think I bought finally at 27... and before that it was about having fun with the money I earned. So how old is your Nephew ergophobe?

None of my family or friends have got into the race of keeping up with the Jones, so I do struggle to understand that part of the mentality.

I should have said "race cars" not "cares"

My nephew is 31... wait... 32 now I think. So on the older end of his generation.

I think for him and his generation, they do not see stability and security as synonyms whereas I believe the older generation tended to think that way. I think the younger generation sees rather flexibility and security as, though not synonyms, siblings. I think that's a more accurate view of the world, but I also think it's new as a default mentality.

Could be totally wrong. That thought occurred to me just now as I was writing it so I haven't pondered it much. But it feels right.

Quoteflexibility and security as, though not synonyms, siblings.

Interesting idea. I get it.  I think it is a luxury. your Nephew is older than I expected, but probably should not have thought that.  My niece is married to a 30 year old Baltimore lad, and they are just thinking about family.  The first thing that happened then is they started to think about the nest.

One of the big changes for that generation imho is the fact so few seem to marry, which does make life more difficult for the girls.  Without a nest to build for a family, a man is far more flexible.

Is your nephew in a relationship.  Very nosy I know but an important piece of the jigsaw.   

I think most of them are consciously avoiding doing the math about their later-life options.  Late relationships and even later kids are great examples of this.  You can tell yourself that you are somehow going to be an extraordinary 'elder' parent, but from what I have observed so far .....pfffft!

I think I'm being misinterpreted...

Quote from: Rupert on April 18, 2016, 08:13:29 AM
I think it is a luxury.

I didn't mean it that way.

What I mean is he and his friends look at an environment where high-performers lose their jobs without notice. They see tying up assets in in home you "own" (what I'm calling "stability" here) that cannot be unloaded when you lose your job and have to move to a new city, as a luxury they cannot afford. What I'm calling "flexibility" is a pragmatic strategy, not a whim.

And this is a pragmatic kid (er... man). He overcame severe dyslexia and some health issues, got into a community college and worked hard, transferred up to one the better engineering schools in the country and got a degree and paid for the entire thing himself with hardly any help from family or government. And all that when graduating in the face of the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression.  Not surprisingly given all that, he trends strongly Libertarian.


>>relationship...

I think I've already said too much about someone who isn't me! I will say that he's not the only millennial I know. Some are and some aren't. I notice that even the ones in relationships often plan not to have children. Given the news, can you blame them?

>>consciously avoiding doing the math about their later-life options.

Remember that Baby Boomers are, as a group, mostly delusional about their (our) preparedness for retirement. Millennials that I talk to have essentially taken it as a given that they will not have Social Security or a defined pension. They are more eyes open than Boomers were at their age.

If I had thought as much about long-term finances as the millennials I know, I would to be frank be in a much better financial place right now (and I'm in a better place than most of my cohort).

The "later kids" question is a long-term trend that evolves over time and it's not new with millennials. It's only a "problem" if they change their minds... which some might. But I think there's been a huge cultural shift that means more and more people opting out of breeding entirely. I know a couple of millennials who say they will never have children and I think they are likely to stick with that.

In 13th-century Florence, during economic downturn, the age at first marriage for men rose from 21 to 27. For women there was less age movement (roughly 19 to 21), but large numbers of people didn't marry because financially they couldn't. Historically, times of uncertainty and economic dislocation have always seen marriage ages and child bearing ages rise. I think that's part of what's going on now too.

Ah OK, thats clearer, not looked at it that way.  At 30 my horizons were definitely shorter . 

QuoteI know a couple of millennials who say they will never have children

Yes, same with baby boomers.  3 couples I know well spring to mind.

At 30 my horizons were rarely beyond a year.

Before about 25, I didn't think I would live to see 30 so my horizons were very short.

Goodness, that sounds like a challenging road.

>don't do the math

"many have grossly underestimated just how much they'll need for that all-important down payment."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-20/it-could-take-years-for-big-city-millennials-to-save-for-a-down-payment

As for the later-life parenting, I'm aware of the economic issues that are cause for postponement, ergo, but I was mostly referencing "hardwired" issues of physical aging and related life events.  IMO, a parent who is in his 50s when his kid hits the teen years is in for a whole shitload of 'convergence' problems.

>a parent who is in his 50s when his kid hits the teen years is in for a whole shitload of 'convergence' problems

Great, now I have something to look forward to in 10 years.

Don't worry, Doc. It's usually nothing that an extra $100- $300k won't handle.